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Terms Of Will

  • 10-12-2021 10:51am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭


    Theoretical question here on the terms of a will, specifically re: a clause attached to a right of residency to one child (of 4), barring that child from moving their partner in after the remaining living parent passes away. What criteria would you use to consider if someone had been moved in/'living' in the deceased's property?


    I've possibly made it overly complicated/convoluted above.. in other words, a father's will leaves the family home to all 4 children, with right to continue living there granted to one sibling, with the condition they never move their partner in.



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,061 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    You want to leave someone something that they can't use! I can't even see how it'll be enforced as once the probate is done who can enforce the clause?

    Just split it 4 ways and let them sell it or 1 buy the other 3 out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    It's already been done, and not by me. Seems to be a standard enough clause. And they can use it, they can and do still live there, just can't move anyone in. The questions isn't about splitting etc, that's not an issue, the question is specifically around not breaching the term of the will, i.e. they can't move anyone in and what, from a legal perspective, counts as living somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    "what from a legal perspective counts as living somewhere"

    • The best people at threading this line are those who have been granted accommodation and / or benefits on the basis they are living alone, but are not really living alone. They'll tell you the main thing is to ensure no post arrives addressed to the "visitor", and that no government agency has the visitors postal address as that residence, and that the visitor has another postal address. Lots of people stay over with boyfriends / girlfriends etc 4/5/6 even 7 nights a week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Thanks for that. That's about what I would have guessed myself. All of the above would apply and the 'staying over' seems to be limited to 2 (3 max) nights a week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Jesus. What's the point in being left a share of a house, if it's no benefit to you until your sibling dies.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    The point is to not immediately make one sibling homeless, because others want their share, while also protecting the other siblings interest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Why would the sibling ever give up living in the house in that case?

    I've a friend in a similar situation. Her sister still lives at home with her dad, as she's always been too lazy to get her own house, and preferred spending her money on herself. There's three siblings.

    If there was a clause such as that mentioned, she'd just never move out of the house. She's never had to pay rent or mortgage in her life, so why start now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,523 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I cant imagine a court upholding such a clause on public policy grounds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Eh.. your friend's sister might just be carrying most of the work towards care of an aging parent??



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    This kind of attitude, is exactly why such clauses exist in the first place. Without going into any unnecessary further details, you don't have a friend in a similar situation, to be clear. Why someone would give up the house, is because they can't have a normally functioning life such as get married, have kids etc if they want to keep living there.

    The clause is standard as added by solicitors, hardly likely they'd adding such clauses if they couldn't stand over them. I'd say the father in this case was pretty happy to have one of the siblings living with/caring for him up to his death. These terms can and do come with other stipulations such as not being able to move someone in, ceases to be valid if sibling buys another property, must buy the others out after x period of time etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    No, that's not the case sadly. She takes advantage of him. Her brother, who doesn't live there, does most of the looking after of their father.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Did I touch a nerve? Are you trying to find ways of moving your boyfriend in without getting in trouble with the rest of your family or something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Do you have ANY knowledge to offer, relevant to the question asked? I've been pretty polite to this point offering clarifications to your 'gossipy' posts.

    Post edited by givyjoe on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,061 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    You still haven't told us how it's going to be enforced? Who will be able to start the proceeding if the person move someone in? Who'll pay the court costs to get them evicted? Considering it takes 2 years to get a non paying tenant out I can't see it being quick or cheap to get someone out of a property left to them in a will.

    If I was left a property with that stipulation met someone who I wanted to move in and had a family who where willing to start a court case over it. The property might accidentally get razed to the ground if I lost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Don't mean to be smart, but not concerned about any of that, it isn't a problem or concern in this case! I'm only looking for POV's on the specific question of what counts as 'living somewhere'. Again, this is a standard term in wills.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Staying there three nights a week constitutes living there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Are you taking the mick?! Do you or these other people have any relevant legal knowledge (or otherwise) to draw upon?! Didnt you say on Friday you didn't?! 🤦‍♂️



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    You just said you were looking for points of view, not relevant legal knowledge.


    You seem to think it's a standard term in wills, so have you thought about engaging a solicitor for relevant advice? You don't seem happy with the information you are getting here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    The specific question asked was '... What criteria would you use to consider if someone had been moved in/'living' in the deceased's property?..' Your reply.. again.. isn't exactly helpful, it's a seemingly arbitrary number based on well.. neither knowledge nor experience. Im looking for points of view from people with relevant knowledge (or experience) as I've stated to you twice..not necessarily from a legal professional I should add. It's been posted in legal discussion.. not after hours!

    It IS a standard term in wills, where it's relevant to be inserted, no legal advice required. What doesn't seem to standard is how 'living somewhere' is defined. Someone else has already provided a relatively detailed post on what that might be. I'm asking a very specific question and looking for replies from people with experience/knowledge around this specific question.. Why are you continuing to offer opinions on something you said yourself you aren't knowledgeable in? There isn't a right or wrong answer, but one with nothing to back it up isn't helpful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    You need to read your own posts, and be clearer.

    I'm only looking for POV's on the specific question of what counts as 'living somewhere'

    I didn't say I wasn't knowledgable. I said I didn't have knowledge to offer you. You just come across to me like a rude know it all.

    I have knowledge and experience on the subject, having managed many residential tenancies over the years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Ah come on now, I specifically asked had you knowledge to answer the question. There's been been repeated asks for further non relevant info and you yourself made some rather unpleasant inferences all without offering any insight whatsoever. I've been more than polite considering the above. At no point before now have you clarified you had any relevant knowledge or experience to offer.. again, the question is specifically about what criteria would be used to determine someone as 'living somewhere'.. and unfortunately it's not as simple as an arbitrary number of nights per week. it's fine if you don't know it's seems to be by no means a straightforward answer.

    The original post was clear enough for a fairly clear cut answer from one poster, and clarified further multiple times in multiple posts. If I knew it all, I wouldn't be asking the specific question. No legal advice required, no thoughts needed on enforcement of the clause, just knowledge/experience needed on what criteria could be used to determine the original question.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There's a significant legal issue here, though, which is that the condition terminating the right of residence if the grantee "moves their partner in" could be void for uncertainty, if there's no reasonable consensus understanding of what constitutes "moving their partner in".

    The OP says that the question is a theoretical one. I think the only realistic response is to say that it won't be possible to offer even a theoretical answer without seeing exactly, in full, without editing, the provisions of the will which (a) bequeath the property to whoever it is bequeathed to, (b) grant the right of residence to one of the children, and (c) subject the right of residence to the condition about not moving a partner in. It would also help to have some background on why the testator might grant a right of residence to just one child, and might attach the condition to it - the testator's intentions might be more easily ascertained if we knew the testator's motives.

    Tl;dr: we need to know more about what's going on here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Peregrinus, I appreciate the long response but there really isn't a need for further information re: the criteria for 'living somewhere'. As I mentioned, this is a standard term in wills, where there is a sibling remaining/still living in a property before and after the parents death. As I clarified to others, albeit unnecessarily, the intention of the clause is to ensure that the remaining sibling isnt essentially made homeless by the remaining siblings by demanding/selling the property asap.. that might not even be possible but that's not a concern in or an issue in this scenario. That clause has the no partner (living) rule to ensure no third party comes along with, or later has a child potentially giving them a claim over the property, or preventing the property being sold when siblings so desire. That should cover the intent specifically enough.


    There is no dispute here, no chance of court from within the family, just a theoretical question on the practical interpretation of what is considered 'living somewhere' so everything in the future is kept above board and so that no one other than the siblings can claim any rights over the property. You don't need to see the full, unedited will to answer that very specific question posed. There's nothing in it which would clarify any further and the intention of the clause isn't spelled out in the will, not sure why it would need to be. The intention of the clause was fairly self explanatory to us, even without solicitors clarification. It's a question which doesn't just apply to wills but doesn't seem to be well defined.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The wording matters. If it's a standard clause in Irish wills you should be able to quote precedent wording without difficulty.

    I note that you have already changed the wording you are asking about. In the OP the will provides for the right of residence to terminate if the grantee "moves their partner in", but now you say what matters is whether a third party is "living somewhere". There's a difference between moving in somewhere and living somewhere, and obviously it matters hugely whether the condition refers to a "partner" of the grantee, or just a third party, who could be a friend or a tenant or a licensee. So you're changing the wording in ways that obviously matter, even while telling us that the wording doesn't matter.

    It really does matter. We don't need to see the full unedited will, but we do need to see the full unedited wording whose meaning, interpretation and application you are asking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I think firstly, this is not a ‘standard’ term in a Will.

    Consideration of a dependent child continuing to live in what has been the family home is something that does arise in practice, but there are other, arguably more equitable and certainly more robust ways of dealing with this issue than what you describe above.

    There may currently be sufficient harmony between everyone in this instance, and maybe this will continue, but that often wouldn’t be the case, and poorly drafted clauses which don’t provide a reasonable degree of certainty can bring about untold difficulty in families.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Apologies re: the wording on third party. I do, or I did mean specifically a partner of the sibling, not a friend etc, with the specific purpose of the will to prevent any partner (present or future) having a claim over the property, but it does also cover anyone 'residing' in the family home. The latter (being defined as any other person below) isn't a concern at all, as it's not relevant in this scenario - albeit it is also specifically not permitted under the clause.

    The clause is ".. Devise and Bequeath to X, a right of residence in the family home... provided always that x shall not bring their spouse, partner or any other person to reside with them on the premises'.

    There's one subclause removed from the above for privacy reasons. It doesn't affect the interpretation of the key part, i.e. reside with them on the premises. And again, the intent of the query is still theoretical but the problem is the clarifications we have received to date (elsewhere) on the scenario are 'fuzzy', hence the desire to have some knowledge/experience on what criteria might be used to ensure the clause isn't breached.


    Not quite sure of the difference between 'moving in' and 'living somewhere', or the actual term in the clause 'residing'. They all essentially mean the same thing, no?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Standard where the need arises and not at all unusual, it's in three wills that I'm personally aware of and the scenario where it's common is where there is a sibling acting as a live in carer for a parent. Equitable is subjective, particularly in consideration of the above situations.

    The only uncertainty in this particular instance is around what 'residing' is defined as or interpreted to be, hence our desire to make sure future arrangements don't breach 'criteria' for this clause.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I see two issues here. First, does the will stipulate what is to happen if X brings their spouse, partner or any other person to reside with them on the premises? Does the right of residence then lapse so that X can be evicted for breaching the condition? Or is it merely the case that the owner of the property can evict the spouse, partner or other person? The will should specify this and, if it doesn't, if X does does bring someone to live with them and the owner of the property argues that the right of residence has terminated the matter could end up in court.

    The second is the issue you've already identified; what does this mean? The will talks about a "spouse, partner or other person"; you could read that in two ways. First, "spouse" and "partner" are there to give you a flavour of the kind of person they mean. The will could just have said "any person", which would mean anyone at all. But "spouse, partner or any other person" suggests another person who is comparable to, or somewhat like, a spouse or partner - i.e. someone with whom there is a romantic or conjugal relationship, or at least a personal relationship. On this view, the point of mentioning spouses and partners is to give you a guide to the kind of person that X is not to bring in. If you read the phrase that way, then X could e.g. rent out a room to a stranger in order to get some money, and that would not be a breach of the condition.

    And it may be significant that ban is not on X bringing somebody "to reside in the premises", but "to reside with them in the premises". This tends to support a narrow reading; the condition doesn't forbid two (or more) people being accommodated in the property, but two (or more) people living a shared life there. So I'd say, yeah, if X wants to let out rooms to people he is is not otherwise in a relationship with, the condition does not forbid that.

    What about people with whom X is in a relationship? The condition does not prevent X from having guests to stay, even for prolonged periods; just from "bringing [them] to reside with him". I think residing somewhere involves more than just staying there, even staying there frequently; it involves the place becoming your settled or usual home. This isn't a simple matter of how many nights a week someone stays there; it also involves looking at other questions like; does this person have another home? How much time do they spend there? Where is most of their stuff? Does the person accept any responsibility in relation to the property - e.g. do they contribute to outgoings, do work or maintenance on the house, spend any money on it? There are no hard and fast metrics here; you have to look at the whole picture and take a holistic view of where this person "resides". That means the application of the clause may be somewhat uncertain in practice; while there may be many cases in which it would be absolutely clear that a person was or was not residing with X at the property, there may be cases where this is less clear, and more debateable.

    If you're not happy about that, don't put such a clause in your will; put in a clause with a concrete and measurable test (e.g. X's right of residence is to terminate if anyone, other than X or any of the owners, spends more than 30 nights in the property in any calendar year).

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Thank you again for the effort and detail, it is much appreciated.


    On the first issue, no, there is no follow on to the term that specifies what is to happen if the clause is breached.


    You're correct on the clause and the wording, the intention is indeed to prevent a partner living with the sibling with the right of residence. That is a very deliberate intention, without going into too much detail, prompted by 'history' within the family. This type of clause seems to be 'standard' enough though, as I mentioned it's in three wills I'm familiar with and with similar circumstances. It's perhaps not standard as you noted, for the clause to be quite so vague on what the conditions are to not breach the 'residing' condition. This lack of clarity is what concerns us.


    Ultimately, all the siblings want to ensure the clause isn't breached, hence the desire for some kind of guidance on how not to breach it, without simply barring a partner from being in, or staying over at the house, that's not a reasonable step to ensure compliance. Our thinking (along with one other on the thread) was similar to your own line of thought, how it appears on the whole. For example, time spent there, another home etc and based on this criteria, there won't be any issue with the clause being breached and potentially giving a partner a claim over the property.


    And again, thank you for the details.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Look, I'll be honest; I don't think the clause is terribly well-drafted to achieve the stated objective. But it's an objective that was never going to be easy to achieve.

    What the testator wants is for the family to be able to turn a partner out before they acquire any claim on the property. But that requires fairly early intervention; pretty much as soon as the lovebirds shack up the wicked in-laws are heading off to court, looking to evict the partner, or terminate the right of residence and evict both of the couple. The sympathies of the court will not be with you; the lovebirds are still very much in love, and you're trying to separate them? Or make them homeless? It's not a good vibe, is it? And, as a matter of public policy, the courts do not look with favour on provisions in wills, contracts, etc, which seek to discourage people from marrying, or to put impediments in their way.

    If the house had been left to X outright, there'd obviously be a risk that (a) X might marry, and (b) the marriage might break up, and (c) X's spouse might have a claim on the house, with the result that (d) expectations that the house would remain in the family and eventually come to other family members might be disappointed. And if the testator tried to forestall that the answer would be: suck it up. What happens to this property will be in response to significant events that happen long after you're dead; there's a limit to the amount of control you can exercise from beyond the grave; this is well past that limit.

    OK. Here I think the testator has done as much as he can by giving X only a life interest. Realistically, you can't stop X marrying, and you can't stop him cohabiting with his spouse, and I think the courts will regard a clause designed to penalise him by terminating his right of residence if those events happen as highly undesirable, and possibly void as being contrary to public policy.

    You're on stronger grounds in arguing, when the marriage breaks down, that it would be unfair to X's family to give his spouse a claim an interest in the property, not out of X's assets, but out of the assets of other family members. Giving the spouse a right to occupy the house for longer than she would have occupied it had the marriage not broken down is something to which X's family members could reasonably object. That's not to say that the court wouldn't do it, but I think the court would be much more sympathetic to that argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,568 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    You're on stronger grounds in arguing, when the marriage breaks down, that it would be unfair to X's family to give his spouse a claim an interest in the property, not out of X's assets, but out of the assets of other family members. Giving the spouse a right to occupy the house for longer than she would have occupied it had the marriage not broken down is something to which X's family members could reasonably object. That's not to say that the court wouldn't do it, but I think the court would be much more sympathetic to that argument.

    assuming they did get married and subsequently divorced can the spouse claim a share of the life interest? how would that work? Does she then attain a life interest in the property or does she attain a life interest that terminates when her husband dies?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm open to correction here, but I think the position is this:

    In general, on marriage breakdown, the court has wide powers to make property adjustment orders which transfer property from one spouse to the other. But it has to be property to which the first spouse is entitled. So if X only has a life interest in Blackacre the most the court can transfer to Y is that life interest (and it's hard to see how that would make for a sensible marriage breakdown financial settlement).

    But if the property concerned is the family home, the court has wider powers, which are not limited by the fact that X only has a life interest in the family home. The court could give Y an exclusive right to occupy the family home for Y's life, rather than for X's life, or for any other period the court may specify. Or it could direct the sale of the family home and the division of the proceeds. And these orders, obviously, could affect the interests of the other owners of the family home.

    Whether courts do often make orders which have the effect of "expanding" one spouse's life interest in this way, at the expense of the other owners of the property, I can't say. And whether they would do so in this particular case, obviously nobody can say. I think the possibility is there. But I also think that a court would at least be sensitive to the interests of the other family members, and would listen sympathetically to an argument that they should not be financially prejudiced by X's marriage breakdown. Or, at any rate, more sympathetically than it would listen to a claim seeking to evict X and Y in case their marriage should ever break down at some point in the future.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    All I’ll say is that in my view the Will has been poorly constructed, and I would question the quality of the advice provided to the testator in this regard.

    The only thing standard in the case of provisions like this is that they often end up in protracted court proceedings, significant upset within families and large costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Aye, you're actually probably right and the will, as I think Peregrinus alluded to, possibly should have had specifics on what was allowed/not allowed etc under the right of residence. The absence of defined criteria is a problem, but i do think the realities of the situation should keep things on the level for now. As mentioned there is a separate residence maintained by the partner, no bills etc are coming to the property in their time and the majority of their time is not spent in the family home. Some of that would be difficult to prove either way but it seems we actually have a piece of technology at our disposal that can objectively verify there's no breach of the clause occurring, or at least it would if there was a set criteria to measure it against.


    Again, the ultimate aim by all concerned is to ensure that no third party outside of ALL of the siblings can prevent them from selling the property when they wish to do so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Two thoughts:

    First, "the ultimate aim by all concerned" here is irrelevant. The only person concerned is the testator. They wrote the will. It may have been their aim to ensure this outcome. It does not matter whether others share that aim or oppose it. The wishes of others will have no bearing on the interpretation and application of the Will.

    Secondly, while I can see that the testator might have wanted this outcome, you can't always get what you want. As I said before, the testator is trying to control things from beyond the grave, dictating how hypothetical future events will be dealt with. People commonly try to do this in wills, but they commonly have limited success. As a matter of public policy the interests of the living are generally a higher priority than the wishes of the dead. It's public policy to facilitate and encourage marriage. And it's also public policy that, when a marriage breaks down, the significance of the family home to the spouses is recognised, and can override other claims on it.

    So I wouldn't be too critical of the drafter of the will for failing to achieve the testator's purpose fully. The drafter should have advised the testator that the purpose was going to be difficult to achieve and the attempt might not be successful. But, for all we know, the drafter did advise that.



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