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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Why don't you just do it all on pm and stop taking up space

    "You are very chatty tonight tibruit..

    Will we be able to squeeze a debate out of you...?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I've just listened to Nick Foster on Neil Prendeville. Nick is like so many people who starts sentences with words like "well the DPP is only....." and then calls into question, cagily enough, the professionalism of this state institution. He tells us about the investigation that he's happy there was no 'systemic corruption'. So that's good that he's happy.

    Nick is someone with an obvious agenda in that he needs to sell a book but he is also very apparently convinced of the Garda case against Bailey. There are trolls in many internet forums as there are on this one but it should be remembered by impartial people that the objective of trolls in this case is not to take a side against Bailey but to keep the endless debate going about the merits of the case against Bailey. So you will obviously have people arguing both sides with the same aim. There is an entirely different debate we could be having, something similar to the one the Bailey case against the Guards initiated in many places.

    We can be very grateful that we don't have a police/justice system like the one in Belorussia, but that doesn't mean we should take the operation of our system for granted. This is why there is quite a debate at the moment about the kind of legislation that should be enacted to give GSOC real power to investigate Gardai. Without going too deeply in to it, it is obvious that there is a lot of contradiction in how a Guard is expected to go about his job at times. I have no hesitation in saying that we are lucky to have in the main decent people working as Guards. We give them quite a lot of power and it is quite difficult to be certain these are not abused. There are occasions when tacit consent will be given to step over the line as when the killer of Veronica Guerin had to be caught 'whatever it takes'.

    As regards the STDP case is concerned there were a lot of witness statements. We had a lot of senior Guards on it who were well used to dealing with some of the hardest criminals/subversives around, and getting information out of them. It is not controversial to state that they would have been terrifying and persuasive to some people who had to deal with them for the first time. The DPP brings cases to trial all the time and a lot of argument around the decision in this case is that somehow the DPP was being very adversarial. That is simply not true, the case being made was very bad and that should have been the spur to encourage a look at other suspects. But for some strange reason that didn't happen. At the very least we should investigate why that was allowed or if there were any circumstances in west Cork at that time which hampered the investigation.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,275 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    flanna01, mamboozle, stop it. Take it to PM or just ignore each other using the utility on Boards.

    2 infractions handed out. Posts deleted. Get back on topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    I listened to Foster just now. This new stuff about a guard writing his notes up differently from "police speak" and that giving away a clue that could crack the case was odd. That cannot be in Foster's book so why not just say it out loud? Even though Foster said this wasn't the "silver watch" it still concentrated on the "late morning" and something that happened then that solved the riddle of no prosecution being brought in Ireland.

    Was something said about somebody involved that meant they could never face justice?



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    Annoying blank post! Sorry don't know how to delete.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Late morning?

    so sometime between 10:40am. and noon,

    Could it be something to do with the identification of the body,

    or contamination of the site deliberately or otherwise?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He claims it was between 11am and 12, at this point there were 2 Gards at the scene.

    He claims there's a hidden clue that only he's ever noticed, and it's a garda mistake which cracks the case, allegedly.

    He's trying to tie this in with his ridonk theory that Ian came back to the scene and was unnoticed during this time.

    Foster is a tool.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    A couple of questions someone might have the answer to. We are aware STDP and Alfie had a chequered past. So with that in mind. Seems logical there will have been a detailed level of investigation into him and his explanations.

    1. The hand injury he had directly after the murder. Was it photographed? I believe it was explained as a dog bite from a dog he was minding for a friend. Who was the friend? Were they interviewed? Can they corroborate the story? Did he see a doctor? Assume he did and got a tetanus shot. Was his doctor interviewed and could he corroborate the marks looked like a dog bite?
    2. Was Alfie's DNA offered or taken?
    3. Was his property searched immediately after the murder?
    4. Is it true his wife was let to go straight out through the AGS cordon the morning of the murder? What was the reason for her disappearance so suddenly after the discovery of the body? Was her car searched? Was this in breach of AGS crime scene protocol?
    5. Where was Alfie born, what were his past occupations, when did he move to Schull. Had he any history of domestic abuse or did he have any other reports of him in the AGS file?
    6. Is it true he spoke Russian and Italian? If so where did he learn them and why?
    7. His infamous parties? Who used to go? What did they drink or smoke? Was there any independent witness accounts of these parties?
    8. Did STDP and Alfie share the same access gate? Is it true there was a dispute about the gate being left open/closed?

    We know pretty much all of the answers to these questions for Ian Bailey, seemingly we should know the same answers for any other suspect?



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    He didn't say it cracks the case, just that it indicates why the case was never solved... I don't know what he's talking about. Seems like he is exaggerating.

    Also, he specifically said it was separate from the wine bottle and the route to the scene.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's full of it.

    It was the wine bottle, watch, last week... Then his paedo mate before that.

    He's bordering on ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,288 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I agree what he's saying is ridiculous... I mean how many of these tricks does he think he can get away with, hints that lead nowhere in the end ... and yet, each time he does it, it gets him media attention.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He even made sure he pushed his book when asked about his relationship with Bailey.

    "I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read the book"

    Not many shopping days till Christmas, sounds like he's getting desperate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    Alfie's hand injury was said to be an old injury he got while skating that he never got looked at the time so it didn't heal properly. It would flare up every now and again. It was looked at by the first doctor on the scene. In relation to the dog he was looking after a dog a few days before but it died.

    Shirley Foster (his partner not wife) was on the way to the dump. The Gardai took the rubbish and went through it, she was not allowed straight through but was allowed to drive later that afternoon. She met Ian Bailey and Jules Thomas on the road to the scene(it's disputed exactly where) at 13:40.

    Alfie was a restauranteur in the US and Ireland. Foster was a teacher.

    I don't know about DNA.

    They did share the lower access gate. There were some disputes over the gate open/closed. Animals came in and ate Sophie's He had a row with Finbarr Hellen over fencing. Alfie owned the shed beside Sophie's which annoyed her because she thought it came with the house. This was poor communication by the Real Estate agent. So he had a right of way to that shed. I believe her son eventually bought the shed. There was another dispute over minor flooding behind Sophies. It was sorted. Alfie's cat got stuck up Sophie's chimney and left black marks all over house. Josephine Hellen blamed him for using Sophie's bath, but you have to remember that the Hellens and Lyons didn't get on all that well.

    Did he have parties? I am not sure he did.

    Past interactions with Garda? He was charged with growing weed in 1994 but got off on a technicality. He was dobbed in by someone, though we have no reason to assume it was Sophie. She was only there a few times a year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Can I ask where you got this information? Because some of it I have never been able to find anywhere...

    Regarding the "disputes" between Sophie and Alfie. Based on what has been reported and what you say, it would seem Sophie is the one who had reason to be irritated by Alfie and not the other way round.

    Also, these things have been depicted by some people as if they are arguments, but just for example, the "dispute" over the shed could be as simple as "I thought I owned the shed". "No, actually I own it."

    Regarding the "someone's been in my bath" allegation... I think many people have tried to use this to throw suspicion on Alfie as the killer. I should point out, this incident could only have happened in the Summer of 1993 at the very latest, since Bruno was the one who noticed it. That puts it at least 3 and a half years before the murder. And it only happened the once and never happened again, according to Josie Hellen. So, I think it's highly unlikely that it would be related to the murder.

    Also, as I understood it, Josie had no actual reason to finger Alfie as the "phantom bather", it was just her random suspicion. In fact, there may not have been a phantom bather at all. Josie could easily have forgotten to clean it. Or it's possible some animal/insect like a cat, rat, bird or spider could get in and dirty the bath. We have no explanation of why she thought someone had dirtied the bath.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It's worth pointing also, that as well as Josephine's prints in Sophie's house, which was to be expected,

    prints of "other family members" (Hellens) were also present.

    Also if I may ask, the crime scene photos show the concrete block lying a few inches away from Sophie.

    Was it found in this position, or was it moved off her to identify her,

    as the one of the guards who arrived first were able to tell Alfie and Shirley that the body was Sophie's



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    As I recall, the pathologist (Harbison) said in his report that she had abrasions on her upper chest area consistent with the concrete block rolling off her after being dropped on her head. And an impression in the ground under her head indicating she had been lying in that position when the concrete block was dropped on her.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There are trolls in many internet forums as there are on this one but it should be remembered by impartial people that the objective of trolls in this case is not to take a side against Bailey but to keep the endless debate going about the merits of the case against Bailey.

    you are obviously a pro Bailey troll. I read last night a post from you* where you were CERTAIN Bailey had nothing to do with it. you wrote

    The impartial (which is what this is all about) among us who have studied this case can see that Bailey certainly had nothing to do with this murder. CERTAINTY.

    That is not an impartial position. No one is certain of anything in this case.

    I find it hard to see how Bailey could have done it but I am not CERTAIN. Anyone with an open mind on it cannot be certain

    *not sure when you posted it I was reading on phone and was not home



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    anyone with an open mind would say it could still be Bailey. No one knows for sure



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    No, she had two sets of abrasions on her back which *may* have been glancing blows from the block. Yes on the second point. The block was found beside her, not moved. All this info is in the books & documentaries, however there are a lot of contradictions and obvious errors. The pathologist report has been reported on many times and most of it is in Michael Sheridan's book.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    It could be anyone, but everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    that is true but mamboozle saying he is certain it's not Bailey is not impartial. to say you are certain is more than a presumption of innonence and is not an objective position which mb claims to have. This is a discussion and anyone who claims one person is certainly innocent is entitled to that view. But it is not an impartial view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "He had a row with Finbarr Hellen over fencing. "

    Was this row anything to do with the fence erected where Sophie parked her car, which by the way was on Richardson's land?

    Or was it to do with the fencing and new gate down at the bottom of Sophie's lawn, do you know?

    (both of which were removed in later photos of the area)



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    The dog thing is in the Karl Zero documentary. The Alfie thing is in a newspaper. The rest is in the podcasts, books etc. I don't know what would make you angry enough to do what was done to Sophie. But people murder each other over the strangest and smallest incidents, especially if they have built up animosity or pent up anger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Yes, you're right. My memory was wrong. The abrasions were on the back



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    You might have noticed that that isn't something I wish to debate? Can I be clearer?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    You just can't say someone was framed but they might be the guilty party?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I'd be inclined to think that it is less likely to have been Ian Bailey than someone else.

    Given the intense scrutiny he has been under for most of the last 25 years, I think if there was something it would have been found.

    I think it more probable that focusing attention on him early in the investigation diverted the focus away from other lines of investigation which might have been more productive in solving the case.



This discussion has been closed.
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