ESB eCars

System · 12-12-2021 8:57pm

This discussion was created from comments split from: New charger locations (notification only, no discussion see #1).

Mod Note: Moved some more posts from the notification thread to here

innrain · 13-12-2021 11:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307151#Comment_118307151

This charger was always a bit strange. Even before drivzz map there was the case the charger was working for some when offline. Probably a setup similar with the AC units which would remember the card if it was used there before. I wonder @loopymum if you can see your charging session on the bill. BTW we discussed on this thread that the map on ecars is bonkers. Go back to pages 170-171. I don't have an explanation of why it happens but don't rely on the color of the charger on the map or the nearby recommended on the home page of the app. You need to drill down into the specific charger page and see if someone is actually charging or not. Because the map will tell you that is in use when it is not, that it is free when someone charging, that it is unavailable (red) when someone is actually charging and all the other combinations you can think of.

Any experience with Blanch? Right now someone is charging on AC and 2 cars on HPC. Which means the AC is on bay 1, which is the most fortunate situation (well nobody can use the 50kW DC). I can see the case when AC is charging from bay 3, someone would use the 50kW on bay 2 and HPC would be blocked. Checkmate. :)

the_amazing_raisin · 13-12-2021 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310039#Comment_118310039

Hold on, did ESB just put a pair of HPCs in a location that is semi useful for someone driving around the west of Ireland?

That 1 competent dude in ESB must be up to his old tricks again 😂

13-12-2021 3:09pm

Great to see some new doubled up DC chargers finally happening. The next step hopefully is that the sites currently with close to 100% utilisation will get more units installed.

ELM327 · 13-12-2021 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314717#Comment_118314717

Anna is on PTO

Black_Knight · 14-12-2021 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289049#Comment_118289049

No activity since Friday from what I see. Unit removed, dug up area is now relayed with fresh tarmac. I don't see a second mount point for a 2nd unit, nor is there much room for one anyways.

AndyBoBandy · 14-12-2021 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319775#Comment_118319775

Surely they'll put it in a different spot? maybe over towards the hotel?

I used it once and it was a really awkward place to put a charger!! It was bucketing down too which made it more awkward being unfamiliar with it.

ELM327 · 14-12-2021 3:06pm

I'd say it's going over to the left (as opposed to currently on the right) as you turn in. Plenty of spots down there

Black_Knight · 14-12-2021 3:12pm

I'll take a drive through it some day the week and see if I can see anything. I've mostly driven through in the evening so it's hard to see much in the dark.

Black_Knight · 14-12-2021 6:23pm

First unit is in. Looks like the new dual CCS dual CHAdeMO style ones. It's replaced the old 50kW triple head. No sign of where a second unit might be going, but I only looked as I drove by.

zg3409 · 15-12-2021 5:12pm

Norn Iron..

The network is currently free to use in Northern Ireland but the possibility of introducing fees is being looked at

Introducing fees to use the electric car charging network in Northern Ireland is being considered for next year, the company that operates the public charging network has said.

Electricity Supply Board (ESB) executives were giving evidence to Stormont's Infrastructure Committee.

The network is currently free to use in Northern Ireland.

The executives reported that there are 1,180 charging stations in the Republic and 170 in Northern Ireland.

Appearing before the committee were ESB executives John Byrne and John Walsh.

They said there were currently 50,000 electric cars in use in the Republic, 4,600 in Northern Ireland.

They said the reliability of the charging network in the Republic is 98%, compared to 69% in Northern Ireland.

Infrastructure committee chairman Jonathan Buckley MLA of the DUP described the figures as "disgraceful" and "startling" and said it appeared Northern Ireland was "the poor child" in comparison with the Republic in relation to the reliability of the network.

UK must do better over electric cars - MPs

Electric cars: ESB to use £3.27m funding 'to double chargers'

Appearing before the committee were ESB executives John Byrne and John Walsh

The ESB executives said the Republic's network has benefited from an upgrade scheme over the last three years thanks to climate action funding from the Irish Government.

Levelling-up funding from the Westminster government will allow an upgrade of the Northern Ireland network over the next 18 months, replacing and upgrading charging points, which the ESB said will make the reliability here as good or better than the network in the Republic.

Levelling-up funding will provide £3.3m, which is 90% of the capital outlay required to upgrade the Northern Ireland network.

The ESB said the electric vehicle charging network operates at a loss in Northern Ireland.

In answer to a question from Alliance assembly member Andrew Muir, Mr Byrne said: "We are actively looking at our commercial models in NI in 2022, with a view to examining our options around commercialisation and introducing fees for charging."

From

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-59670987

zg3409 · 15-12-2021 5:18pm

Comments and actual video of meeting

https://evani.uk/video-infrastructure-committee-quiz-esb-over-abysmal-service-new-network-plans/

Video: Infrastructure Committee Quiz ESB Over “Abysmal” Service & New Network Plans

December 15, 2021

Earlier this morning representatives from ESB ecars presented to Stormont’s Infrastructure Committee.

You can watch the full presentation below (from around 19:10), plus the question and answer session that followed. Here are some of the things we learned from todays meeting.

The Existing Network

As we know, ESB have 177 chargers in NI (160 x doubled headed ACs, plus 17 DC Rapids)
ESB were asked how many of 177 chargers are working today. They replied that the NI network has a 69-70% reliability rate. They pointed out that the 30 chargers upgraded earlier this year have had a 96% reliability rate since their installation.
They were then asked what the figure was when the network was at its worse point. ESB did not have that information to hand but said they would send it to the Committee. The chairman told ESB that their service has been “abysmal”.
When asked how this reliability compared to RoI ESB said it was 98%. The chairman replied – “I find it startling that that is the difference. NI is the poor child in this relationship.”
ESB told the Committee they run the NI network at a loss, spending between £500K and £600K per year. They also stated that “we’ve all been quite uncomfortable with the state of the network over the last 2 years”
ESB also stated that they are not the only charger network in NI and other operators are present
When asked how NI compared to RoI in numbers, ESB said that there are around 1,170 chargers in RoI, which lead the committee to suggest that NI should have something more like 450 to be comparable.
ESB said that the business case remains “very challenging” with limited numbers of EVs here, although they did concede that numbers are rising rapidly. The chairman replied with “Build it and they will come”.
The ESB representatives said there are 50,000 EVs in RoI and only 4,600 EVs in NI, and that “half are plugin hybrids that aren’t a frequent users of network here”. EVANI can confirm that this figure is incorrect however, understating EV numbers here by over 40% (DfT figures show 6,491 plug-in cars in NI for Q2 and Q3 numbers are due to be published this week which will show another substantial increase).
ESB admitted that the poor network here is at least somewhat to blame for this low figure, saying that they “do recognise that the perception of the network is an inhibitor to EV uptake”.

The New Network

ESB talked about their project to replace the entire network here, which is part paid for by the Levelling up Fund and stated “We recognise there a lot of work to do”.
The £3.27M from LUF will pay for around 90% of the total capital investment required
ESB confirmed that the grid connection costs in NI are substantially more expensive than any of the areas in GB that they operate (London, Cambridge & Birmingham) and also the Republic of Ireland.
The 5 new Rapid Charging hubs announced by ESB will allow “4 to 8 vehicles to charge simultaneously” (we assume this means 2 double headed rapids at some sites and 4 at others?).
The ESB network replacement project will see around 25% of existing AC sites have their equipment replaced with DC Rapid chargers.
Installation will begin in Q1 2022, with works already started around gaining permissions etc
However, ESB told the committee there is currently a world-wide shortage of chargers
ESB’s London network has a reliability of over 95%, with 98% for their chargers in RoI over last 12 months. ESB envisage the new network in NI will be similar.
ESB are currently in the procurement process for a new maintenance provider for 2022. The SLA will have a best response time of 2 hours for the most urgent faults, ranging to a 2 days for lesser items like graffiti.
ESB envisage it will take 18 months to roll out the upgrade program across NI, finishing by “July/August 2023”.
When asked about the Faster Project, ESB said they expect it to go to the procurement stage in Q1/Q2 2022. They confirmed they intend to “bid strongly for this work”.
ESB confirmed they intend to Introducing fees for charging and over stays in 2022, as they had previously told EVANI in October this year

Black_Knight · 15-12-2021 7:55pm

Interesting to see an SLA of best response time of 2 hours. That's not an SLA that's of any use. It's a nothing if I understand it correctly. Are they saying they'll have an agreement that their best response time will be 2 hours? But not agreement around uptime or mttr or anything end users care about.

Black_Knight · 15-12-2021 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321510#Comment_118321510

Just realised. WE assumed they'd make this a hub. I'm pretty sure this is just a unit swap. No additional units going in.

DrPhilG · 15-12-2021 10:08pm

Some figure fudging going on there. 69% reliability in NI? Recently replaced chargers very high up time?

Bull.

McGiver · 15-12-2021 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315000#Comment_118315000

Finally? There are 5-7 of them out of 110 FCP locations or something... in the whole country like...

@Black_Knight do you have exact data on how many locations are more than 1 FCP?

Black_Knight · 15-12-2021 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328165#Comment_118328165

13, I did a lazy count in my DB where there's more than 1 CCS plug unit per site. Should be the same for CHAdeMO.

+------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| date       | address                                                                        | ccs_count |
+------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| 2021-12-15 | Blanchardstown Centre, Navan Road, Clonsilla, Dublin 15                        |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Circle K - Centra, Rochestown Road, Rochestown, Cork City, Cork                |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Circle K M9 Kilcullen, M9, Co. Kildare                                         |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Circle K Service station, Centra O'Briens, Lynn Road, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Circle K Service Station, M8 @Junction 3 (R433), Ballacolla, Laois             |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Circle K Service Station, Promenade Road, Dublin Port, Dublin 1                |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Kilmartin N6 Service Station, Dublin road, Athlone, Co.Westmeath, Ireland      |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Lunney’s Service Station, Sligo Road, Carrick-on-Shannon, Roscommon            |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Mayfield Services, M7 Junction 14 (R445), Monasterevin, Kildare                |         4 |
| 2021-12-15 | Park Ri Service Station, Cavan Road, Townparks, Kells, Meath.                  |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Portlaoise Plaza, Exit 17, M7,  Portlaoise, Co.Laois, Ireland                  |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | Texaco (Mace & Supermacs), N4, Ballinalack, Westmeath                          |         2 |
| 2021-12-15 | The Galway Plaza, Junction 16, Carrowkeel, Kiltullagh, Co. Galway.             |         2 |
+------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
13 rows in set (0.00 sec)

Black_Knight · 15-12-2021 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327562#Comment_118327562

All ready to rock once it gets power. Shameful if Frankfield is left as a single point of failure. Great it can charge 2 cars at once, but it's Cork Citys best placed charge site and will easily require more units now or very soon.

the_amazing_raisin · 15-12-2021 11:46pm

Bit strange they got rid of the 50kW unit, they haven't done that with any of the other sites AFAIK

I guess they must have been constrained by available parking and weren't bothered running a new cable somewhere else

At least it can manage 2 cars in parallel now

the_amazing_raisin · 15-12-2021 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328029#Comment_118328029

I assume they count uptime as no faults reported, and they aren't actively running any checks on the chargers to ensure they're still online and healthy

innrain · 16-12-2021 12:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328506#Comment_118328506

As it stands Cork has double the number of Dublin HPCs so triple would have been to much to bear 😊

Black_Knight · 16-12-2021 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328959#Comment_118328959

Had a look on ESBs ecars network updates page (https://www.esb.ie/ecars/our-network/network-upgrades) and they say Frankfield will be a hub. And ecars define all their hubs as having 2 units. I had a scout around the forecourt and the hotel but couldn't see anything obvious where works might be ongoing.

There are three tiers of high power charging hubs – tier one consisting of four high power chargers allowing up to eight electric vehicles at any one time; tier two consisting of two high power chargers allowing up to four electric vehicles at any one time; and tier three consisting of one high power charger and one fast charger allowing up to three electric vehicles charge at any one time.

So either they're not finished (though that 1 unit looks ready to go, and spaces all painted up), or they're putting a 2nd unit elsewhere on site, or it won't be a hub.

Black_Knight · 16-12-2021 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328669#Comment_118328669

They have that data. I have that data, and if I have that data, they damn sure do too. Units report states of offline, available, faulted, unavailable, charging, occupied (plugged in but not charging) and a few others like initialising charge. I judge reliability as when the unit is not "unavailable", "Faulted", or "offline", because in those states you very likely cannot initiate a charging session. Search Randles Garage in Killarney here - https://ecars-stats.com Offline more or less the whole week.

16-12-2021 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328165#Comment_118328165

13 locations is better than I expected to be honest. It's great that we finally have some doubled up locations and that there are actually new chargers happening unlike between 2016 and 2019 when it felt like that the network was going to die of neglect with combination of freeloading and lack of investment. In 2021 especially the network has finally seen plenty of upgrades.

innrain · 16-12-2021 11:42am

So I got to test the HPC in Blanch. Wasn't easy to prepare to be at low SoC as my fallback charger The Helix easygo trows me errors since last week. Anyway I used the pre-conditioning which Tesla opened to other chargers but I used Lucan on the navigation as Blanch is not o their map yet. When I got there the HPC was used by an Outlander and a Peugeot. The AC while occupied was not in use, and it looked that it was there from last night. So no spot even for the mere 50kW. Fortunately while trying to figure out what to do both the Outlander and Peugeot left so less than a minute of a stop I figure the battery still warm. Started with 8% SoC and the power went straight to 133kW

Then it increased up to 141kW where it stayed up to 36% SoC

And that took 10 minutes. Unlike my previous test with Ionity this time I said I will stay 20 mins but I logged when it reached 100kW which was at 52% SoC and after 16 minutes (32kWh added) averaging 120kW.

I stopped after 20 minutes. The SoC was at 60% and charging at 83kW. Total energy added 38kWh, average charging speed 114kW

What I noticed by looking at various times on the app Blanch has a great turnaround. The HPC helps. I noticed it took a bit longer to start but it was consistent afterwards, as these Delta units are know to be. Too bad that the AC there. They could have added an AC charger on the other side of the pedestrian crossing.

ELM327 · 16-12-2021 12:50pm

The placing of an AC there is one of the silliest things "Anna" has done. Right up there with having a "hub" in a shopping center in the first place.

liamog · 16-12-2021 2:48pm

What I noticed by looking at various times on the app Blanch has a great turnaround. The HPC helps. I noticed it took a bit longer to start but it was consistent afterwards, as these Delta units are know to be. Too bad that the AC there. They could have added an AC charger on the other side of the pedestrian crossing.

Lot's of demand for DC charging in the area, pity the AC socket on the 50kW screws things up a little.

ELM327 · 16-12-2021 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330966#Comment_118330966

4*50kW DC chargers and a separate AC location with 10*7kW AC would be a better use. The current situation is a poor use of resources and not enough spaces allocated

UID0 · 16-12-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331180#Comment_118331180

Yes, DC and AC chargers should not be sharing the same parking area. They should be deployed to suit different dwell times. AC should have regular parking spaces, and should really only be used by people intending to spend in excess of an hour. DC should have larger spaces so cars van park in multiple orientations to cope with different charge port locations and should be used by people staying for shorter durations. The only difference I would say is that the AC chargers should be three phase. They can be set up to allow each individual port to supply 22kW, but the overall MIC for the AC charger bank to be at around 11kW per charger and load balance to ensure the total draw doesn't exceed the MIC.

innrain · 16-12-2021 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331598#Comment_118331598

I don't really understand what are you suggesting.

UID0 · 16-12-2021 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331698#Comment_118331698

What I'm saying is that I'm agreeing with ELM327 that the DC and AC chargers should not be at the same part of the Blanchardstown SC complex. I am saying that the DC chargers should be set up so that they aren't used by people who are going to spend several hours there, but should be set up with parking spaces that are big enough for cars to park in any orientation so that they can use the charger without impeding access to any of the other chargers.

I am also saying that the AC chargers should be in a different area, but that instead of being 7kW as ELM suggested, that they should be capable of delivering 22kW if someone plugged in a vehicle capable of taking it. As there is a small number of cars capable of taking 22kW, the site doesn't need to be able to provide 22kW to each port all the time. I was suggesting that if the maximum power provided by the site is 11kW x number of ports, then the vast majority of the time each vehicle that plugs in will be able to pull their maximum power. It reduces the maximum load that is allowed to be drawn from the grid, thereby reducing the cost of providing the transformer and other infrastructure relative to providing 22kW for each port, but without reducing the actual usability of the site.

I hope I'm more clear this time.

ELM327 · 16-12-2021 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331752#Comment_118331752

Yes I agree with that. Unfortunately I doubt that Anna understands what you are saying let alone have the ability to do it!

10-10-20 · 16-12-2021 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331752#Comment_118331752

I'm going to make an educated guess that function which you describe will happen in time, but most likely in destination locations such as hotels. Many hotels won't be able to push beyond 22kW (~95A) due to local infrastructure issues and cost but will be under customer pressure to add charging spots, so I'm guessing that a load sharing option will come along where that 22kW will be shared across all of the chargers and perhaps even offering a first-come first-served option on a higher charging rate (selectable from the charging point). EasyGo are you listening? :)

slave1 · 16-12-2021 4:55pm

I think backstepping on 22kW AC is a bad move, they are a great benefit to the 11/16/22kw EVs and we should be encouraging EV makers to make more use of them, thankfully the upcoming Ariya has 22kW capabilities.

In Winter a lot of cold EVs are better off on 22kW AC if they can fully support it

AndyBoBandy · 16-12-2021 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331866#Comment_118331866

Tesla Destination chargers will already load balance between themselves, and Tesla give them to hotels for free (though the Gen 2 ones only cost €430 these days anyway).

innrain · 16-12-2021 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331752#Comment_118331752

I got it now. The last bit it was confusing me. So load management on AC charging. It will happen. So far manufacturers were all muscle up to get market share. Now they will start looking at refinement. Here we have just one AC which is one too many.

BTW Blanch has a number of AC (4?) in front of the Red entrance. So leaving the car overnight at this "hub" should be costly. I would limit the AC socket here to 3 phase. In fact I would do that to all triple heads so making sure the Zoes are actually cater for. I don't mind the location it is quite accessible from M50 especially if you read the signs and use the other exit.

liamog · 16-12-2021 5:26pm

I'd limit the AC socket in desirable locations to call centre activation only in the event the DC chargers were down and purely act as a failover.

4*50kW DC chargers and a separate AC location with 10*7kW AC would be a better use. The current situation is a poor use of resources and not enough spaces allocated

Not too far off what they've delivered, 2 75kW DC spaces, and 1 50kW DC space with a spot for PHEVs to go to the cinema 👿.

I don't see much advantage to rolling out 4 50kW DC chargers instead of rolling out 2 dual sided 150kW ones, and it still allows those of us who need to use Blanch to get a fast charge in the time to grab a Starbucks or a donut.

Totally agree with you on the need for spaces to match the number of charge points, and I also think eCars should not be in the business of providing AC charging to shopping centres unless it's paid for by the shopping centre itself and delivered somewhere else on site.

10-10-20 · 16-12-2021 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331945#Comment_118331945

Ah, I didn't know that. Makes sense.

McGiver · 17-12-2021 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328407#Comment_118328407

@Black_Knight thanks, so 10% of locations have 2 FCPs.

How many of those 115 locations have 3 FCPs.... Oh hang on 😎

McGiver · 17-12-2021 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329922#Comment_118329922

Plenty is a relative word.

Number of FCPs in last 3 years increased roughly from 85 to 125 or so. That's 40% increase (1.4 fold).

However, EV numbers grew at least 200% in the same period.

EV:FCP ratio increased rapidly because 40% increase in FCPs is way too low to keep up.

You get the point...

Some comparison, increases in FCPs in last 3 years in various countries:

Bulgaria - 3.5 fold

Croatia - 11 fold (20 to 250 FCPs)

Lithuania - 3.7 fold

Finland - 3.4 fold

Netherlands - 2 fold

Czechia - 6.3 fold (100 to 630 FCPs)

Austria - 2.5 fold (250 to 1000 FCPs)

Etc etc.

You get the gist again.

ESB and Irish gov are totally unprepared for what's happening and what's coming. And that's before I mention the grid which isn't in a good shape at all to support numbers seen in similar sized countries

slave1 · 17-12-2021 10:29am

and with the raft of newer EVs that can go well past 50kW charging, the 50kW charger should now be looked on as legacy only and no longer a fresh install, 150kW triples (with removal of AC) should be the minimum standard in 2022

17-12-2021 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335463#Comment_118335463

The speed of getting the chargers to connected to the actual grid appears to be an issue, perhaps. Wonder if it is the pricing, availability of the suitable power lines or just lack of contractors that can make the connections? The cost of a 1-2 MW connection appears to be very high but don't have the foggiest on how this compares to other markets.

Just wondering what is the bigger picture on why the other countries are overtaking us left right and centre. One thing working against Ireland is lack of through traffic which in some other countries surely help with finances of charging networks.

Black_Knight · 17-12-2021 2:05pm

ESB blaming a global shortage of chargers now. Probably legit, but other countries are still surging ahead installing FCP.

TitianGerm · 17-12-2021 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336954#Comment_118336954

Those other countries probably bought up all the stock in advance of expansion. ESB were probably ordering one at a time when they needed them!!

innrain · 17-12-2021 5:00pm

DE has a lot of subsidies for network charges. Probably others too. They also mandated service stations to install chargers.

Been around Blanch today again. All 3 spots occupied only AC charging. Lots of EV circling, probably because the app it says both chargers are free. I can only imagine the frustration.

ELM327 · 17-12-2021 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338259#Comment_118338259

And if they are plugged in to DC but not charging, there's no overstay fee!

DrPhilG · 17-12-2021 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338259#Comment_118338259

What feckin hope do we have when they're doing things as stupid as this? They sit down and talk to the IEVOA don't they? So how is this level of dumb possible?

innrain · 17-12-2021 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338998#Comment_118338998

No I understand why this location is bad. I didn't really consider shopping cause I have it removed from my DNA. The longest shopping spree for me is 45 mins. I see on plug share someone giving out about a CCS PHEV staying for 75 minutes. Probably better overstay would sort this out.

Fingleberries · 18-12-2021 12:33am

Overstay like Tesla would be better - once you're stopped charging (80% or 100% or whatever you set) you've a couple of mins to get off the stall or it starts racking up the cost and doesn't stop till you leave.

Some people might just factor the €4.60 into their charging price because for larger batteries 45 mins at a 50kw or 22kw charger might not be enough (especially if they have no home charger).

liamog · 18-12-2021 2:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338259#Comment_118338259

There is only one AC socket there, so not entirely sure how that's possible.