United Ireland Poll - please vote

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327224#Comment_118327224

You accused posters of being "exclusionary Nationalists" though...you sure about that? Care to explain who and how they are so?

Junkyard Tom · 15-12-2021 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324776#Comment_118324776

I would also ask Nationalists to remember that btw - NI Unionists are merely continuing what has been passed down to them through generations

Absolutely. I think a large aspect of constructing a United people in Ireland will be giving each other a break on our respective histories. We cannot change the past but we can certainly shape the future together.

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2021 8:46pm

When you are having to come up with stratagem after stratagem to deny one particular aspiration (that has already been democratically decided upon) then it is you who are being 'exclusionary' blanch.

All you are doing on this thread is desperately trying to find veto's for unionist and partitionist aspirations.

Brucie Bonus · 15-12-2021 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326175#Comment_118326175

No need. Those interested in it can put it forward. Those seeking a UI don't need to. People know what they want and vote accordingly.

You are attempting to vilify people for wanting a UI. Suggesting they need near a full majority and be open to not really wanting a UI. You don't make the same conclusions about any other view. Its just the UI you have a problem with.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327473#Comment_118327473

Not going there and falling into that trap. I would say that certain posts have displayed an exclusionary nationalist ideology or worldview and leave it at that. And, before you ask, not going to go back and resurrect examples.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327635#Comment_118327635

Those seeking a UI are speaking to a diminishing minority.

Not villifying them for seeking that, more pity I suppose.

Those who seek change have to justify it, they also have to be open to critical examination of their proposal and its possibility of success.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327535#Comment_118327535

Not at all, a united Ireland as you envisage it will never happen. All I am doing is putting forward alternatives that might work.

Harryd225 · 16-12-2021 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287723#Comment_118287723

Not true, Britain threatened ''immediate and terrible war'' if the Irish didn't go along with the treaty so anyone advocating against the treaty was the equivalent of invading the North by fighting against British rule in it's entirety.

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328768#Comment_118328768

Not going there?

You made the accusations. The onus is on you to back them up or retract them.

You're not very good at this debate/discussion game are you?

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328780#Comment_118328780

Those seeking a Federal state or re-joining the UK are speaking to a non-existent minority [sic].

Why should we entertain anything you say on that basis?

FrancieBrady · 16-12-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328806#Comment_118328806

You just 'excluded' me there totally unaware of yourself. 😁

All you are doing is voiding/excluding the aspirations of your boogeymen and women.

My 'vision' includes everyone who wants to be a democrat living on this island and also includes those whom I oppose ideologically. I have adhered to the terms of the GFA like many in the north and expect those who voted for it to do the same.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:37am

n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328852#Comment_118328852

Never said I was seeking a federal state or re-joining the UK. I am happy with the status quo.

However, those of you in the diminishing minority in the North would be much better off designing a more inclusive united Ireland if you have any hope of succeeding. The timeframe is diminishing though, another couple of generations and nobody will be looking for a united Ireland.

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328896#Comment_118328896

Never said I was seeking a federal state or re-joining the UK. I am happy with the status quo.

You're exhausting.

Are you suggesting that we should take advice from you about inclusiveness?

---

Let me know when you find those examples of posts that I requested. Cheers.

Brucie Bonus · 16-12-2021 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328780#Comment_118328780

Its obvious you only have a problem with anyone seeking a UI.

You want those people to be open to changing from a UI to some as yet unspecified ideas for a third option. You've gone so far as to claim you "feel pity". Seems to me you are more worried.

People want what they want. They might not get it. Thats democracy.

Its like people going to vote for FG in a general election and you telling them to think about voting for Renua because FG aren't looking like winners. Nonsense.

16-12-2021 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326631#Comment_118326631

There will be compromise, but not in something as fundamental as name and (imo) flag. The simple example I always think of is the rule that primary (I think) school teachers need to have a qualification in Irish. Practically, in a UI that is going to have to be removed / postponed / whatever because you're going to have thousands of teachers in what is now NI that cannot legally teach. There will be other scenarios like that which will require compromise from Ireland to accommodate us on practical grounds that we will arrive at and deal with one by one.

Your view that the name of the country might need to change is a really good indication of why detail cannot be worked out before a referendum, because the process would include everything and would literally be neverending.

16-12-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327217#Comment_118327217

"The point is, feel free to post any opinion you like"

Aye, up to a point, but you need to have a bit of sense along with it. For example if I go on a board and say I really enjoyed black ink spaghetti you can't just comment a reply that I'm racist. Your views need to be grounded in some sort of logic and basic sense.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330196#Comment_118330196

How could I have a problem with anyone seeking a UI, when it is something I would want in the longer term? It would mean I had a problem with myself.

I am happy enough with the status quo, but if the communities up North can show that they can reject the sectarian extremism of the DUP and SF, and we can move to a united Ireland where Britishness and Northern Irishness get the respect and acknowledgement they deserve, then who wouldn't be happy with that?

The type of united Ireland that you seek doesn't have that, and doesn't have a chance of succeeding, based as it is on a philosophy of exclusionary nationalism. If we ever get a united Ireland, it will be a lot closer to the type of united Ireland that I have talked about. It is a pity I am unlikely to be around to say I told you so.

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 12:53pm

A big problem with blanch's suggestion of a Federated Ireland, Joint Sovereignty or any other 3rd option is that it's not part of the GFA.

The GFA specifically refers to a United Ireland, and that is what the referendum will be about.

Blanch doesn't have a constitutional path to a 3rd option, which means his view point is outside the GFA.

Brucie Bonus · 16-12-2021 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330273#Comment_118330273

You claim to want it but also want to change how we get a UI and what it might mean. You are consistently highly critical of people seeking a UI, which is fine, but at least own it.

I am happy enough with the status quo.

I mean come on.

You can respect and acknowledge other nations and their citizenry in your country. We all do it all the time.

Why people want or don't want a UI is not for you to judge on behalf of everyone seeking a UI.

Voting for party A over party B is exclusionary going by your speak. You only use that argument when speaking about a UI not those seeking to keep things as is or any of your third options.

A UI will be a country called Ireland with all its provinces intact. No apologies and no buts.

Just Some Young Lad · 16-12-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328768#Comment_118328768

Just because you feel like a post was from an exclusionary nationalist ideology or worldview does not mean that the person is an exclusionary nationalist. In school I spoke French, but I am not French?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. Knowing when you can do something and when you should do something is the difference between being smart and being wise...

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326571#Comment_118326571

I notice that you correlate support for a UI, with support for Nationalist parties specifically (SF + SDLP), in order to come up with < 40% support number.

However you are making presumptions in that calculation that are not true. For example Alliance as you know, are now the 3rd largest party and they are neither Unionist nor Nationalist by their own declaration and, they intentionally leave the Constitutional question to one side.

AP deputy leader said in 2020:

"Alliance is not a party that is defined by the constitutional question,” said Dr Farry. “While there may be some members who prefer the union, and some who prefer a united Ireland and indeed many who are open to persuasion, we are not only united, but defined, by our shared commitment to make this society work, to overcome division and to build a better future."

We literally don't know the % of Alliance members that would vote for a UI, but there are clearly some. In the absence of such a data point, Alliance numbers should be in the 'Don't Know' column.

In the 2019 UK General Election:

317250 votes for Unionist parties.

300590 votes for Nationalist parties.

617840 total votes for the tribal parties.

48% going to Nationalists

Brucie Bonus · 16-12-2021 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330792#Comment_118330792

Not forgetting the great number of people not aligned to any party.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330792#Comment_118330792

That only adds to my point. If a united Ireland is to capture the vote of those people in the middle, then it cannot be the type of united Ireland favoured by the two parties sharing the diminishing nationalist vote, it has to be a broader concept than that.

Given that the Northern Irish identity is strongest among that middle group who generally vote Alliance, the federal concept as put forward by the New Ireland Forum (and not the silly Eire Nua version) offers the best possibility of a successful outcome in the next two decades.

If someone is really serious about creating a united Ireland, they would be involved in discussing how federal a "Federal Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" would be. In parallel with that, they would be discussing harmonisation and financing issues without dismissing them for the utopian future.

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331423#Comment_118331423

It means no such thing, there is no correlation between being Undeclared on the Constitutional question, and a Federal Ireland concept.

They are literally Unknowns and Undecideds and some that are just being politically correct, but deep down are Orange or Green.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331603#Comment_118331603

You see the world isn't as binary as you think. Thought everyone would have learned that lesson by now.

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 4:17pm

Since the foundation of the irish state, a grand total of zero FFFG governments have actively pursued a UI. By pursing i mean advocating, advancing plans, proposing, promoting, advertizing, shouting from the roof tops, whatever.

Once SF get to government here I expect that to change and shortly thereafter, the polling numbers supporting a UI will raise in tandem. Exactly like what occurred in Scotland with the Indy Ref.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331661#Comment_118331661

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/politics/nifr.htm

Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

The New Ireland Forum Report was one of many initiatives that took place.

However, the fundamental point was that most Irish people and governments in the South understood from very early on that a united Ireland could not be achieved without the consent of the majority in the North. It was part of Sunningdale.

It was those who kept up the terrorist campaign after that who were the slow learners and who set back the cause of a united Ireland.

I expect that a Sinn Fein government in the South will decrease support for a united Ireland in the North.

Speedline · 16-12-2021 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331423#Comment_118331423

This is like Brendan Bendars 'middle Ireland' during the water charge threads a few years back. He was literally the only poster at the time banging that drum.

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 4:36pm

There can only be a referendum on a UI blanch, not on Joint Authority or a Federal Ireland because that's what the 2 governments agreed to in the GFA.

That's what the IRA agreed to and that's why they decommissioned weapons. If they try to exchange a UI for a Federal Ireland or a Joint Authority arrangement, that would be a breach of the GFA.

In sales they call it bait and switch, advertise a price but once you are in the shop or at the till, that price isn't available and they replace it with another, higher price, an illegal practice.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331760#Comment_118331760

Now that is complete nonsense, unless the UK played sneakily clever to make sure something that might be acceptable to a majority was permanently off the table.

Where in the GFA does it specify what form a united Ireland will take?

A Federal Ireland is a form of united Ireland.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

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