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The new National Development Plan 2021-2030

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Hmmm, the N25 east of Midleton being ignored for investment. Sure thats never happened before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    In the case of Sandymount there was plenty of space to mve back the wall on the seaward side to provide a cycle lane of any width desired. There was no need to interfere with a regional road to provide it. The entire project was more about disrupting people going about their business than provided cycle facilities.

    As for Galway, a bypass is for people wishing not to go to Galway, so the time take to cycle across Galway is immaterial. The time taken for a truckload of fish to get from Rossaveal to Dublin is a proper measure.

    Sadly, there is a privileged minority spouting false analysis who are trying to colonise the country generally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Navan is bypassed by the M3 and mostly by the N51 (except through Blackcastle).

    I don't think anything else is even proposd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Anything in Navan would be a relief road or distributor, and at County level. The NDP has commitments to support such roads, especially where they improve the ability of pedestrians to use the town centre, or improve public transport and opportunities to walk or travel by bike.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    On The kentstown road a sort of bypass is being built in a loop fashion back towards the boyne. This is being i think partially paid for by a maynooth based developer to open up the land for housing and will eventually cross the boyne.


    While on the other side of the town as part of the developnent plan meath co co want the landowner/Developer to build a road from the trim road going north direction and in doing so they will open up land for there houses and give again a type of ring road. Aldo the latter is a longway off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,046 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A new section of distributor road is being built in Navan from the Kentstown Road towards the Boyne. You can also see a reservation beside the cemetery for it to eventually extend across the river to the N51. Navan is probably one of the better planned towns in terms of future expansion.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As for Galway, a bypass is for people wishing not to go to Galway, so the time take to cycle across Galway is immaterial. The time taken for a truckload of fish to get from Rossaveal to Dublin is a proper measure.

    First off, its a ring road, not a bypass. The councils own analysis states only 3% of traffic meets the criteria you laid out. Kinda nuts to spend close to a billion for only 3% of the traffic. If you wish to discuss further, I'll see you on the ring road thread.

    Sadly, there is a privileged minority spouting false analysis who are trying to colonise the country generally.

    Completely agree that the private car has the country overrun, its time fight back against those vroom vroom colonizers



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    MOD:

    Take the Galway Transport stuff elsewhere



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    "East of Midleton" being the key bit of your post. AKA the bit that's badly needed.

    We have all the money in the world for West of Midleton though....just because...nothing to do with sprawly "city, not city" land development or anything :D



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  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    Looking for some help. Section 3.3 of the new NDP introduces the Climate and Environmental Assessment of the NDP Review and talks about an accompanying paper to the review. Anyone manage to find this accompanying paper on GOV.ie as I have had no luck so far? Perhaps still being written?

    An accompanying paper to this review provides a thorough explanation of the process that was engaged in to reach conclusions on the expected impact of each measure. It also summarises the overall results of this assessment and offers guidance on the interpretation of the results. Finally, to illustrate how the process worked in practical terms, the assessment paper notes how rankings for certain thematic areas of capital expenditure were arrived at.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII were in the Oireachtas Transport Committee today.

    Massive red flag regarding funding. €5.1bn available between now and 2030 but €1bn between now and 2025.

    Circa €800m already committed to ongoing projects and committed ones (M50 enhanced operations, N5 Westport-Turlough, N22 Ballyvourney-Macroom, Dunkettle, N56 Dungloe-Glenties, N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge, N59 Moycullen BP, N69 Listowel BP).

    Leaves €200m for planning of the other ~35 projects, CPOs for the projects at ABP (Galway/Adare). Crumbs left over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,046 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Isn't that funding pretty much in line with the way things have been progressing anyway? The M21 is due to commence construction in late 2023, the M28 shortly after, its unlikely both will spend €100m before 2025.

    The only thing is the Galway Ring Road doesn't fit within that funding before 2025 (possibly not even if was happening on its own, nevermind with other projects going on) but it will likely have legal challenges to deal with, assuming ABP approve it at all.

    What other projects could be ready for construction before 2025, Slane and Ardee Bypasses, anything else? Would the Killaloe Bypass be from TII funding given it is a R road?



  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    TII 2022 Allocations for transport and greenway projects published today. Will be some casualties due to limited funding.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Indeed. Peter Walsh warned of this a few weeks back in the Oireachtas Committee. Disappointing but not altogether surprising given the current political environment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    Busy day for TII with Code of Best Practice for Greenways published Agreement reached on Code of Best Practice for National and Regional Greenways - (tii.ie)



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    2022 allocations out

    N25 Midleton-Youghal the only new project

    Looks like the mothballs have got their hands on Clontibret-Border, Mullingar-Longford, Cahir-Waterford, Tullamore-Kilbeggan, Carrigtwohill-Midleton



  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    N/M11 J4 to J11?



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    This looks positive. Midleton-Youghal is more necessary than Carrigtohill-Midleton.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,595 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    Was the killaloe bypass scrapped? Or does it's finding cover from somewhere else? I see we're also still trying to talk away the M20



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  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    Different agency (Department of Transport) responsible as it is a Regional Road project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    The document states the M20, M28, N21/N69 and Oilgate to Rosslare all won't start construction until after 2026. It specifically says the M20 won't be done until after 2030.

    The hope that the Ryder Cup was an unofficial deadline for the N21/N69 scheme is well out the window now.

    It also says funding priorities were changed to align with the minister's view that small bypasses are good. Christ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    This country is cursed with Ministers for Transport who actively oppose easier transport. Honestly, there should some restriction on ministers from Dublin taking the transport brief. They seem to have no idea how the rest of us live.



  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    What will happen to the ones that got no funding ,will they be left as they are until funding is provided again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    Does anyone know what those N20 plans are? Lavitt's Quay - West Link Business Park



  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    Thanks , that leaves a lot of people living on the route corridors with uncertainty for goodness how long



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,046 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Well it says "expected to commence in the 2026-2030 period of the NDP" but reading between the lines, they could start earlier if funding is made available. The impression I get from the document is that TII are trying to put some pressure on the government.

    There is €10m for Adare Bypass/Foynes which presumably is for CPOs and fencing. You'd hope the FG & FF can get this approved to go to tender despite Ryan. The Ryder Cup will be a big part of that, plus it is a town bypass which Ryan says he is in favour of.

    The M28 is also progressing in the backgroundand they will seek approval to proceed to tender at the end of next year. Given the Port of Cork is already moving, I think this will have to be funded as the existing road just can't adequately serve port traffic.

    The N/M20 won't be ready for construction this side of 2026 anyway. Once it has planning approval, they should split the project and look to progress sections of it rather than waiting for the whole lot to get funded.



  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭Limerick74


    New appraisal guidance published today by government https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/800ea3-common-appraisal-framework/#

    ”Following the publication of the National Investment Framework for Transport in Ireland (NIFTI), an additional appendix containing interim guidance on the alignment of land transport investment proposals with NIFTI has also been made available below. This guidance takes effect immediately and should be followed by Sponsoring Agencies when submitting appraisal documentation to the appropriate Approving Authority.”



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Nearly that time of the year when we see the funding profiles for 2023. It'll be interesting to see where to next with the roads programme.

    I gave a quick look through 2022's allocations. 51m allocated to the N5 in Roscommon for construction and 10m allocated to the M21 Adare bypass presumably to commence land purchase and proceed to tender. Vast amount of that unspent but I wonder if it was used to cover inflation claims for the N5/N22/Dunkettle schemes.

    Presumably, funding will be thrown at the M28 next year to get it close to construction. It and the N5 which is already tendered are the only majors with full planning permission. There's sections of the N56, N59 and N86 which could proceed to construction next year too. Adare has the High Court to deal with and who knows what Galway's story is.

    Donegal TEN-T (Letterkenny relief road + DC upgrade, Letterkenny-Lifford 2+2 and Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass) are to go to ABP next year for sure. I'd imagine they will proceed or the Government will get hosed in Donegal next time.

    There are 17 projects in planning and design, which seem to be the next pack after N5/M21/M28/Galway are done. That's a big pack and all seem to be funded at the minute. It'll be interesting to see which ones are put to the top of the queue. You also have 2 finishing out route selection (Killarney bypass and N17 Knock-Collooney). The 17 are: Ardee-Castleblayney, Kilmoon Cross-M2 Ashbourne, Slane bypass, Clonee-M50, Virginia bypass, Carrick on Shannon bypass, M11 Oilgate-Rosslare, Donegal TEN-T (3 projects), M20, Abbeyfeale bypass, Newcastlewest bypass, Cahir to Limerick Junction, Milltown bypass, Mallow relief road.

    Anything with the word "bypass" attached to it is sure to get prioritised until 2025 as things stand. Perhaps after that TII will report to someone who understands the importance of inter-urban and inter-regional connectivity.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I thought a good chunk of the unspent N5 construction funds went to the design and survey work on the N4 schemes that had previously been parked. There were surveys underway two weeks ago along much of the route.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I'd expect a lot less than 51 million to be spend on the N4 for that kind of work. 2 million tops.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    That's beyond sad. All of the roads projects bar the N2 in Monaghan, the N24 schemes and the Tullamore-Kilbeggan route are European policy anyhow.

    Either way it's about time the country took a new approach to protect nationally strategic infrastructure projects from this kind of clownery.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know, the FIE have form in this regard. They got the previous climate action plan overturned and forced a complete rewrite.

    Same as Sweetman, they win more often than not.

    From the government perspective, its very easy to avoid these types of cases, just adhere to the requirements as per their own and the EU's legislation.

    At the end of the day FIE and others are not out to block progress but rather ensure environmental legislation is adhered to in order to protect the environment as much as possible from damage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    AFAIK its very difficult to adhere to some of the legislation - its written very loosely in legal terms so you can always find an angle to pick away at.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Which is an issue in itself. Vague legislation serves noone well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The opposite. Vague legislation allows nuance and interpretation when circumstances change. Our government is based on a system where we elect people to write laws, and if there are problems with the application of those laws later, the judiciary is allowed to refine them.

    If you make the law exact and prescriptive (as, for example with minimum sentencing for offences) you remove the ability to judge individual cases on factors that the original lawmakers were not aware of, and that can create injustice.

    In the case of the NDP, we could have written it with exact limitations in regard to emissions, for example, but then be hamstrung if, for example, a disaster caused serious damage to of a major motorway, but we didn't have the carbon budget to replace it, as a hard emissions limit would make the repair of this critical piece of infrastructure automatically illegal (and you could bet the likes of FIE would sieze on this to block the construction).

    But it's really hard to see how the NDP itself breaks climate commitments, when it actually makes very few firm promises at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    I found this transcript of the TII appearing before the Dail Joint Commitee on Transport. It's a good read for roads nerds!

    There's also a detailed accompanying report which I can't link properly so attached below instead. It has a detailed update on all their projects. One interesting point is that the N58 Foxford bypass has been added to the list of active major projects under the NDP (the only new addition that I can see).




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Criminal law is a different kettle of fish and has nothing to do with anything so the comparison is moot.

    The damaged road analogy is also ludicrous



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001



    It's not ludicrous, it's a conclusion of the two things you advocate: rigidly defined commitments and the government not being permitted to deviate from those commitments.

    The world is uncertain, so good policy has room for that uncertainty within it. That makes it susceptible to attack by people who do not like the policy, but the judiciary will rule on whether those attacks are valid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Interesting to see N25 Midleton-Youghal on that major schemes list (page 10) as "Early Planning".. That's a scheme that many have thought was parked indefinitely. Okay, it's only options development, but good to see it's even on a list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    We must thank a junior Fianna Fail (I think) minister who made an enormous fuss about it. It got the Castlemartyr and Killeagh bypasses put on the agenda, an agenda that they should have been on years ago. It seems to have been upgraded to "Midleton to Youghal" since.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This exactly. It was added after that riff raff when the NDP was published



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Facepalm. I spent a good chunk of time last week doing homework on all the minor schemes for the roads update here, not knowing that document was out there. Thank you for the link.

    It would be absolutely wonderful if a document like that could be kept up to date on the TII website. It would save me tracking all these schemes for one.

    I suppose the politicians would veto such a publication as it would demonstrate how bad the farcical timeline for development of some of those minor schemes are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40 neiljung


    Some updates buried in here, notl real news on national roads but some detail on centrally funded R and L roads see page 40 https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/0969b-ministerial-brief-december-2022/



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    Lots of little nuggets in here, it still says Metrolink construction will start in 2025 and be done in the early 2030s.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I think it’s possible. Metrolink has been slowly, quietly working its way through the various stages, and is now awaiting a planning approval. Assuming that this happens in the normal two years (and I am hoping that the reorganisation of ABP is to speed up these projects), another nine years is plausible for a phased opening. There was some small work done at the difficult sites (The Mater and Dublin Airport), and Dublin isn’t Rome - they won’t be finding any archaeological treasure-troves under Ballymun Road.

    What the government should be doing right now is lining up the next phases of the Dublin Metro, so that there isn’t a long gap once people realise that having an underground is actually really good for the city, and they start to complain about there only being one line...

    We get badly delayed in this country by the gap between deciding to do something and the required designs and permissions being in place to do it - by the time a project is ready to start, often the money to pay for it has been spent elsewhere. In cities with good transportation, you always find that there’s a permanent office whose job is solely to design and cost future transportation projects - they keep producing fully-costed ideas that can be quickly submitted for construction permission, so that whatever amount of money is available for transportation, it can be spent as part of a long-term plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40 neiljung


    2023 allocations for Local and Regional Roads released


    Lots of detail in the link at the end of the page.



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