Is Ireland Racist?

Just want to comment on this. Do you think this post is racist?

I suspect you, or others will be adamant that it isn't. And I'm not saying that it definitely is. It's not particularly offensive and the person who it is referring to is unlikely to read it.

But, it does imply something negative must be at play if is being claimed a traveller is successful at something. And while you, and others will probably say that you are saying that from experience (even if it isn't your own experience) that type of attitude is prejudicial to travellers who have to fight against the negative stereotype that is applied to them. Often without any direct cause with that being done for a specific individual.

It doesn't mean it is as bad as what goes on in other countries, or towards other races but it can still be harmful to people who feel that they are judged before they get a chance to prove themselves. If you were a young traveller and you constantly saw people judge you in this way, do you think it would ultimately be a positive experience or not?

I was the second person to respond to the OP on this thread, and said that I don't think Ireland is a racist country, and I still don't, but that doesn't mean that there isn't areas in which we could improve or that there aren't people who are in fact being racist. Some possibly without even knowing that they are being so.

Doesn't your post repeat the point that OP was making?

Wanting a group of people to fairly contribute to society and end harmful cilultural practices was referred to as ethnic cleansing earlier in the thread (not by you).

People jeered you about the shape of your eyes, but why were they bothered about the shape of your eyes? Because of what they assumed went along with eye-shape - the various social and cultural differences that separated you from them. The shape of your eyes marked you out as (I'm guessing) East Asian, and they had a whole set of prejudices and preconceptions about East Asian people that they dumped on you.

You're quite right that they thought they were superior to you, or that you were inferior to them, but they didn't think that it was the lack of an epicanthic fold that made them superior; that was just a convenient and visible marker that called attention to your ethnicity. It was other supposed characteristics of your ethnicity that they assumed made you inferior.

With regard to the Jivaroans, criticising the practice of headhunting would not make you a racist. Assuming that, because somebody is a Jivaroan, he practices headhunting or he is accountable for the headhunting practiced by Jivaroans would be racist. Believing that you or your ethnic group are intrinsically superior to the Jivaroans because you do not practice headhunting would be racist. Becoming obsessed with the practice of headhunting because it is something Jivaroans do while discounting equally or more grotesque forms of violence practiced or sanctioned by your own culture would be racist

Yes, my comment was based on my previous experiences with travellers, of which I have much experience. I've grown up near them, had them in my class in school and would be on a first name basis with many of them. And from my experience, all of those travellers that I know engage in dodgy practices. Every single one of them. I know dodgy settled people too, so I'll throw that in for balance.

I fully accept that the comment does imply something negative because I do have a negative view of travellers, and that is justified in my opinion based on my own personal experiences of them.

I'll be honest here. My negative attitude towards travellers is unlikely to change as long as the travellers keep behaving as they do. The narrative is always 'We're prejudicial to travellers; we need to change our views of travellers; we need to be more accommodating of traveller culture etc'. How about adding to the narrative 'Travellers need to cop the fcuk on and stop engaging in illegality/antisocial behaviour'. Apparently it's racist nowadays to ask a community that has a problem with illegality to behave (and yes, they do have a problem with illegality - 0.3% of the population are traveller women. 22% of women in prison are travellers). All I want travellers to do is to obey the law and stop causing so many problems. I don't see it being racist by expecting travellers to modify their behaviour to remove the antisocial/illegal aspect from their culture.

And from my experience, all of those travellers that I know engage in dodgy practices. Every single one of them.

That's quite the insight. To what degree do you know them? Do you know them by name, do they know you? Or are you referring to members of the community who you have read about after court proceedings or whatever?

As for the percentage of female travellers who are in prison that has been quoted a number of times. I'm not going to say that they are imprisoned incorrectly even though there are claims many of them are there for first time offences for things such as driving without tax which I think we can all agree wouldn't be a practice solely limited to the travelling community.

I have no problem with people being held accountable for the crimes they have committed. But, I do have an issue with the widespread condemnation of a group of people because of the actions of some within that group. That leads to negative self worth, stigma, mental health and an unwillingness to engage. What do you think the impact of a group of people who might be experiencing those actions and emotions over several decades? Do you think they might become more likely to put up barriers and to be confrontational and to have a two finger attitude towards everyone else?

I lived beside a family of travellers for just under 3 years. I had no issue with them and even after they moved, if I met some of the children in town, they'd recognize me and salute me. Is it right to have a prejudicial and negative view of those children and to treat them accordingly? Who does that serve?

The street where I grew up had two settled traveller families. They were my neighbours. I know every one of them by name. I know lots of their cousins and extended families by name too even though they don't live in my old street. We are on a first name basis and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Over the years they have accumulated quite the criminal record. As antisocial stuff goes, they aren't the worst, but as for robbery and stuff like that, they are very industrious.

There are three more (sets of) traveller families in the town where I grew up. By that I mean three different extended family groups so maybe 60 of them in total. I would be on a first name basis with a lot of them. Some of them were in my class in school until they left at about 14 or 15 so I'd know them very well. Some others I don't know to be quite honest. They keep the Gardai quite busy.

Examples of the crimes that they do regular enough so that I know about them: Stealing caravans in England and Germany and bringing them back here for sale. They've got caught at that a few times. Selling drugs, my Mam's neighbour regularly buys off them, quite openly too. Some have robbed local shops and gotten caught. Burglary is very common. My cousin caught them trying to break into his neighbours house. The local Gardai have caught them using cloned licence places. I could go on and on and on. They are shady as fcuk.

I'll agree that the travellers aren't the only ones driving with no tax etc. but that's just a deflection on your part. It's quite clear that the traveller community has a problem with illegality.

You talk about 'some' within that group. What percentage is some? 5%, 10%, 50%, 80%. One could argue that if the troublemakers numbered 99.9% of the traveller population that it is still only 'some' travellers are causing a problem. There has to be a time where their sh1te behaviour has to be called out and something has to be done about it.

And you are talking about traveller negative self-worth. One of the worst insults a traveller can call another traveller is a 'countryman'. And that's their word for settled people like me and I'm assuming you too.

Travellers don't give a sh1te about us. They have their barriers up because they don't want to change any aspect of their lives except for to figure out how to get more and more stuff for free. And again I'm basing that on my own personal experience with them.

Hey, I've had no issues from the travellers who lived near me as I was growing up either so we were both lucky there. They caused me no problems. Like I said, they were not the worst when it came to antisocial stuff. And they were mostly careful not to 'sh1te on their own doorstep' so to speak so they didn't do much robbing in my street. But they did and still continue to build quite a sizeable criminal record.

I'm not saying the travellers you know are breaking the law by robbing etc., but if they were, would you change your opinion of them then? Because that's what's forming my prejudicial and negative view of travellers? They aren't changing their ways one little bit yet we are supposed to bend over backwards to accept them and facilitate their culture when they are robbing us blind at the back of it.

That's a similar can of worms to the one about how a guy who refuses to date a transwoman is transphobic or a lesbian who refuses to date a transwoman is transphobic.

Some people just might not be attracted to the look of people of a certain race, just like some people mightn't be attracted to gingers or short/tall people.

If you are going to start claiming people who aren't physically attracted to some types of people of being discriminatory you going into full on la la land.

I see Traveller culture has been mentioned a few times and how we want to destroy it but no mention as to what this culture actually is.

Only culture we see from them over this end of the country is nearly wrecking Tuam at a funeral last summer and last Friday one of them rammed another car off the road at Bothar na dTreabh as part of a fued between 2 different factions.

Its just a miracle no innocent person was killed because that a very busy stretch of road, the pavees seem to think its the wild west and laws don't apply to them.

Cool.

Have you an answer?

At least you've the good sense to realise that given a choice between looking like a bigot, or an idiot, it's probably better to look like an idiot.

Really? You don't know what I meant?

If you don't think it applies to you, you can still answer.

So to avoid going down a detour to the question let me adjust it slightly.

To everyone on here. If the entire population of Ireland was to adopt the traveller culture, act and behave like travellers. Would Ireland as a result of this be a better or worse country?

Far worse.

Whatever about the pros and cons of traveler culture, the fact is that for a nation to succeed in the modern world, it has to have a highly educated population.

If a cohort actively eschews education and training, it’s clearly at odds with that requirement. Clearly, it’s not a template that would set this nation up for success in the 21st century.

I also find it extraordinary that a poster who claims to work in the area of law enforcement, however tangentially, can be so laissez faire about a section of society, known to have higher levels of criminality. The incarceration numbers prove this out. Let’s hope that this level of ambivalence isn’t widespread across the entire law enforcement community.

OK. If you didn't notice I removed the word supporter and I mentioned nothing about rights.

Now take a deep breath, relax and read my question. Here I will even post it again to help you out.

To everyone on here. If the entire population of Ireland was to adopt the traveller culture, act and behave like travellers. Would Ireland as a result of this be a better or worse country?

As always you don't have to answer, I can't force you to do anything. However, I will come to conclusions about you if you don't answer or try to wriggle out of answering. I think the question is clear and I deliberately did not define culture as that would be a sticking point.

So, go on, give us your opinion on the scenario I have proposed.