Russia - threadbanned users in OP

How can it be about Ukrainian independence when they are already happily independent , Russia wants all NATO forces to be removed from Europe full stop , hence the demand they remove troops and weapons from former Soviet Union states ,who post ww2 had zero say about becoming Soviet states ,why would Putin want that exactly ,no nato troops or weapons so he can invade and return the states back to the Soviet Union.

It's like the usual response on boards let's not stand up to Russia because they have nuclear weapons

@[Deleted User] do think it's likely that Putin will seek to take Ukraine... but I also think he could be bought off with some internationally recognised guarantees that said that NATO or the US wouldn't ever place any military assets in countries such as the Ukraine, ensuring that it remained independent... but I suspect that wouldn't interest you..

Why would it interest me or anyone else ,you yourself saying Putin wants to take Ukraine says it all , Putin wants to return to the Soviet Union of old , so what if eastern European countries and Baltics weren't originally part of Europe ,not that they had a choice post ww2 forcibly occupied by the red army , hundreds of thousands disappeared across the bloc ,so what do we give to putin no NATO troops or equipment in former Soviet states , that means right up to the middle of Berlin , meanwhile Russia can invade and occupy everything east of Berlin because who's going to stop him ,not the EU or a highly weakened and hamstrung NATO ,

Do you honestly think putin sticks to legally binding agreements ,like the russsian Ukrainian treaty where Ukraine handed over it's nuclear weapons in return for a friendship and nonaggression treaty ,

Nukes handed over several years later invasion , occupation and annexation of parts of Ukraine ,

But let's get NATO out of the way to keep putin happy

NATO are considering whether to place more troops in Romania and Bulgaria https://www.dw.com/en/nato-mulls-deploying-troops-to-bulgaria-romania-der-spiegel/a-60182693

I'm not getting drawn into an argument about terms. I've used the term EU/NATO to reference the economic & military blocs as well as their members. You can call them the good guys if you prefer.

I'm not getting drawn into the rights and wrongs of any military interventions, regime changes, partitions, or assassinations. It is sufficient for my argument that you acknowledge they are practised by EU/NATO members. Any grown up assessment of the world has to accept Russia will practise them too.

I'm not getting drawn into the revisionism regarding the crazed reaction to Trumps election.

At this point and time, I've yet to see any real evidence that Russia is massing troops for an invasion of Ukraine. Is there Russian troops in Russia? Sure. Do they do large scale military exercises on a regular basis? Sure. The Russians have denied they have any plan to invade, though they have also been clear that any Ukrainian offensive against Russian passport holders (apparently 500K in the region) would lead to a response. You don't have to trust them - any objective assessment understands that it gains them nothing and it would be even dumber without the advantage of surprise. And we have experience - the same wailing and keening about a huge Russian invasion was happening back in April 2021. No Russian invasion then. There will be another session of keening and wailing sometime in 2022. And 2023. And 2024. And 2025 and so on.

There are clearly factions in the US that thirst for a military conflict with Russia. But that's no reason to listen to them. These are the same people who brought us stories like the Iraqi WMD programme. Now it's annual Russian invasions.

This is just another chess game for Putin - ratchet up the pressure - at the same time europes gas is under threat - and Moscow has spent years gearing it's economy towards this , if ukraine does something stupid then the Russian military will enter and absorb Donbass - if there's a situation they can use they'll keep going .. and you can guarantee there'll be as much behind the lines, little green men , stuff as possible -

If NATO does not support Ukraine's independence to chart it's own course it's appeasement, plain and simple. It would be a really troubling message to the Baltics, Poland, all former soviet republics.

Who would be next?

How well built are these Russian military camps near the border? It must be miserable being in temporary accommodation for months in winter around there.

I'd last about 20 minutes so! I hope it doesn't escalate to full-scale war between Russia and Ukraine.

I'm not getting drawn into an argument about terms. I've used the term EU/NATO to reference the economic & military blocs as well as their members. You can call them the good guys if you prefer.

If you use terms that have a clear definition (like the EU & NATO) in your own way such that they mean something entirely different, then you will make communication impossible.

I'm not getting drawn into the rights and wrongs of any military interventions, regime changes, partitions, or assassinations. It is sufficient for my argument that you acknowledge they are practised by EU/NATO members.

No, it's not sufficient just because you state that it is. Most of those listed "Western" (apart from US involvement in them, I think that's about the only vague common denominatior) military interventions were not an equivalent of Russia invading Ukraine to turn it into a new satellite state. Only the US/UK (note: not NATO, not EU) Iraq invasion would be a near equivalent, and even for that there would be several differences.

Any grown up assessment of the world has to accept Russia will practise them too.

Alright then, that's fine so.

By they way, if Russia wish to do that with Ukraine entire, from what I read given hostility of both the govt. (which will put up a fight) and population to this, it may involve a brutal war with casualties and refugee flows the likes of which we've not seen in Europe for a long time. You'll be happy to know I'm not a "militarist" and I don't think there's actually anything the West can or should do here other than punish Russia with economic, political and social isolation after the fact and strongly support a (non Russian puppet) Ukrainian govt. if one survives on territory they retain.

If it does happen, will be interesting to come back here and see what you think of events from comfort of your little cosy nest in "neutral" Ireland. Safely ringed by the weaponry and armies of a bunch of those Western military powers you so sneeringly term the "good guys". It's all a little bit sick making when you think about it really.

I'm not getting drawn into the revisionism regarding the crazed reaction to Trumps election.

What? I'm not revising anything.

At this point and time, I've yet to see any real evidence that Russia is massing troops for an invasion of Ukraine....any objective assessment understands that it gains them nothing and it would be even dumber without the advantage of surprise. 

There are clearly factions in the US that thirst for a military conflict with Russia. But that's no reason to listen to them. These are the same people who brought us stories like the Iraqi WMD programme. Now it's annual Russian invasions.

Well they do seem to be building up military forces at/near the border(s) for some reason. You can't invade a country the size of Ukraine by surprise but I am also unsure what it would gain Russia and it seems like a disaster in the making for everyone. I don't recall any past claims made that Russia may invade Ukraine soon were as loud as to have US president flustered + holding emergency meetings with Putin etc. This situation is not the same as pre-Iraq war. It should be easier (for media) to verify a claim of movement of forces than answer the difficult question of what weapons a country has available to it, or what it is building in secret in hidden facilities. Like yourself, am around long enough to remember there was so much extremely public dissent and doubt (incl. from UN weapons inspectors if I recall) around the assertions about WMD and imminent threats etc. coming from those in US/UK governments who were pushing hard to justify war.

Got to love the sense to humour

You are describing the behavior of the US.

This is the latest coming from Kremlin TV , American mercenaries are planning to launch chemical weapons attacks ,and are training Ukrainians how to attack russian military positions, Putin himself referenced US military personnel in eastern Ukraine today,along with the notion of US missiles being only minutes away from Moscow and how Russia has nowhere to retreat

It looks like Russians don't appreciate conveniences of SWIFT that much, after all. Or they didn't understand some part in "The Worst Economic Sanctions The World Has Ever Seen".

So... is there a "plan B" or is it going to be: "Sorry Ukraine, we tried" ?

...or is there something we, simple folks, don't know ?