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GDPR and Irish politics.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And said report outlined that the database had breached the transparency cornerstone of GDPR. It was secret until Sinn Fein got caught.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So its not secret now??you lot run about and change yous mind by the minute at this stage😅


    .....come here to me,did the report also say,there is no law banning such data bases of voters intentions/permissions??



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeh, so secret SF were passing out printed booklets on how to use it. 😁😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The phrase "bespoke database" sounds rather odd. Perhaps it means that it is not like a Wordpress or Joomla database which has a standard schema (structure) that does not vary from installation to installation. The report is quite mild and finds fault with other parties too. The fact that there were no sanctions or fines must be really upsetting for FG and its supporters in the media. Whatever credibility those FG supporters in the media had is damaged by the findings in the report which just amounted to a set of recommendations to make things compliant with GDPR.

    Regards...jmcc



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    What is the problem (nobody has outlined one) using this data for canvassing and electoral purposes?

    Seeing as the DPC has outlined what SF have been doing with their Abu database was not lawful, I guess you will take this one on the chin Francie?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    In a way, yes it was secret as nobody in the public knew of its existence before it was reported on in the media.

    This is what the DPC has to say about it.


    So now, every election poster, letter and pamphlet from SF will have to have a notice pointing its way towards the Abu database.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,114 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Wordpress and Joomla aren't databases. They are content management systems. There is no standard database structure. They can both be configured to provide database functions, probably using add-ins.

    A bespoke database is exactly what I'd expect here. The Irish electoral register structure is unique, so off-the-shelf solutions from the UK or the US would not be usable here.

    Have a go at SF for their data protection practices by all means, but the bespokeness is not an issue here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    A 'question' asked on a forum?

    Far as I can see SF can carry right on doing what they were doing, What would I have to take on the chin there Mark?



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    OMG a graphic designer will have to add a line of text to a poster? How will they ever function as a political party again?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,114 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Broadly yes, but they have to tell people that they're recording their data, have a proper DPO with a proper privacy policy setting out their retention of data, and give people to right to have their data updated or deleted.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They committed to the appointment of a DPO way before the report came out Andrew.

    But broadly, it's 'as you were' ...just make sure and do the following things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152



    Were those the printed booklets confidential to members instructing them to scour social media for evidence of voter intentions and to secretly gather the information?

    The Report expressly said that it found no evidence of SF telling the public that they were collecting information on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    They committed to the appointment of a DPO after they got caught out and after the investigation started.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    More than that. They will have to proactively draw voters attention. So the next time a Sinn Fein canvasser calls to your door, just like you get the data protection warning when you ring a bank or other service, they will have to begin the conversation by telling the voter that they will be recording information in the Abu database. If they don't do that, and they record information, they will be in breach of Data Protection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "Mr Delaney said the DPC will take a “dim view” if Sinn Féin does not comply with the recommendation that the party tell voters about the Abú system on all its canvassing and electioneering material.

    “If somebody complains to us about it, we’d have to certainly examine it and look into it and question Sinn Féin seriously,” he added."



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Of course the significant findings are of no interest to you and it's not hard to work out why. (Significant 'as you were' findings in bold)


    The data watchdog said there are no limitations under existing legislation stopping Sinn Féin or any parties from operating a database which notes voters’ perceived voting intentions.

    The DPC found “no particularly concerning findings” to report from auditing 26 parties, but made more than 80 recommendations on how data protection policies could be improved.

    Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party were told to update their privacy policies to note their use of electoral registers after the audit.

    Fianna Fáil was told to regularly contact its non-voting membership to ask if they want their data retained. It was also instructed to update its data-retention policies.

    The DPC said only parties who process the details of more than 30,000 people will need to appoint a Data Protection Officer.

    The DPC also audited the fake polling activities of seven political parties including Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Sinn Féin and found no data protection laws were breached by the practice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    They carry on with what they are doing*

    *Apart from of course having to notify all 210,000 people in their database that they have their details and every scrap of SF electoral literature from a letter to a poster MUST have a clear reference to the Abu database.... apart from that, sure is business as usual in SF HQ!

    ROFL



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Ah yes, its like one of those.

    "We record this phone call for record and training purposes..." preamble every time you ring some service.

    That will go down like a lead balloon on the doorstep.

    "Hello, I'm from SF, and before we can talk to you about our policies, we need to let you know that your personal details are going into a Database used for political purposes, do you consent....?"

    LOL



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    So they have been warned and another breach is going to have serious consequences, not to mind public backlash because of said warning. Is it in SF's manner to keep within the law? Some doubt it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    No, it isn't, but it's a serious warning shot at SF... perhaps we can continue this conversation in the SF thread Francie, where it belongs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No again mark...all parties were investigated and all had issues. Nothing particularly 'serious' about the recomendations unless you need them to be 'serious'.

    i

    One good thing though: The DPC answered my question way back at the start of the thread...how serious are the breaches here ----

    no particularly concerning findings” answered the DPC.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    They investigated all parties and the only party that had an entire chapter in the report addressed to them was SF and their Abu database, which will all be shut down now because of the requirements laid out by the DPC.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,156 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes, because the investigation happened as a result of a national newspaper investigating only a SF compliance lapse. As we know that quickly engulfed all parties.

    Tell us the 'serious' outcome again Mark? Garda criminal investigation? Nope...Sworn Tribunal...nope.

    It was more like...hey folks, will you stick a line on your literature and tell people what you are doing? Good on yis! Carry on. 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,114 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Don't think it will be that difficult. In many cases, the person on the doorstep will be asking the canvasser to get back to them about the pothole or the medical card or whatever, and won't generally have a problem with their data being retained. Some people might draw a line between retaining data for the specific query and retaining data in general, but most won't - same for all parties.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭jmcc



    To explain it in simple terms, Wordpress and Joomla are database backed content management systems. They store the content data in databases and dynamically generate webpages using this stored data. The user can update the data without ever having to understand much about databases, PHP or plug-ins. They typically use MySQL/Mariadb as the database software. The database schema is tweakable but most Wordpress and Joomla installations just use their respective default schema (database structure) when installed.

    The phrase "bespoke database" is rather quaint and seems to be aimed at a non-technical audience and allows them, much like reading the "technology" section of a newspaper, to think that they understand database matters.

    In terms of complexity, the Irish electoral register is not a major problem. It is already quite structured and the database schema would be relatively simple for such a small dataset. The main problems would be in what database professionals refer to as the ETL phase. This is where the data from the register is extracted, transformed into a standardised format, and loaded into the database. Even the address data could, to some extent, be correlated with the Eircode for addresses to reduce errors. But these are the kinds of things that database professionals, rather than web developers, deal with and think about.

    What SF did with its Abu database wasn't complex and it is the kind of thing that has been commonplace in politics outside of Ireland for decades. The Irish political parties had generally been well behind the curve. SF had just been more professional in its approach. It made FF/FG look stupid and incompetent. This naturally upset FF/FG and its supporters. It was obvious that FF/FG's friends in the media would be used to make a big thing about this but it really just landed all the political parties, including FF/FG , in the crap and and resulted in no sanctions or fines. FG is still the third largest party in the Dail behind FF and SF.

    SF is both the most popular party in the opinion polls and technically the largest party in the Dail. The political hit pieces in the Dublin media obviously did not have quite the effects that FF/FG supporters expected.

    I have to admit that I found the foam flecked ranting about databases and hosting by one of FG's schoolteacher/senators quite funny especially when it turned out that FG was using the same web hosting company as SF. :)

    Regards...jmcc

    Post edited by jmcc on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭skimpydoo




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Exactly, and if they don't do that each and every time, there will be plenty of complaints. Easy to predict.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    To paraphrase someone once before a Dail Committee, which bit of the report that has a whole chapter uniquely devoted to the Sinn Fein database did you not understand?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Public backlash? A few outraged Sindo/Indo FG supporters and the Ballymagash UDC FG members seemed upset but most people didn't really give a damn as things like Covid and real life had higher priorities.

    Regards...jmcc



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