People who reluctantly got vaccinated, how has your life been affected?

Markus Antonius · 17-12-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335968#Comment_118335968

They could start voting with their feet and walk away if anyone gets refused entry for whatever reason. I think pubs have too much of a bind on people's lives anyway. Something else that won't prove to be a bureaucratic nightmare (such as private/beach/open air venues) will take their place.

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329721#Comment_118329721

It's certainly possible - the key difference here is that I will accept that finding if scientific research supports it.

But anti-vaxers have no time for science, or don't understand it, or regard it as a conspiracy against them.

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 2:28pm

One other thing to call out here: there are at least 5 COVID vaccines in use in Ireland. Each one is different to the others, and there are even completely different mechanisms whereby they create immunity.

So it is odd* that the anti-vaxxer propaganda talks about 'THE vaccine' as if there is only one, and that it is terribly dangerous or risky. It's almost as if they want to gloss over the facts to try to make people scared to take any of the COVID vaccine options.

*well, not really. Honesty is not really the strong suit of the anti-everything weirdos.

Wibbs · 18-12-2021 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342430#Comment_118342430

Nope. Not any more. Now we have two, both mRNA in action. If you want to take a vaccine or booster, but want to chose any other type for whatever reasons, you have no choice in the matter in Ireland for the moment. It may as well be "THE vaccine".

hometruths · 21-12-2021 9:13am

I'm reluctantly partially vaccinated, one shot of Pfizer. As things stand, not intending to get the second shot, never mind the booster. Apart from not being able to go to the pub, which I would have done regularly, and travel being more of a hassle/expensive, day to day to life has not been affected.

Ended up half vaxxed, as I was not keen on mRNA and was already skeptical watching cases climb as vaccination rates increased, but reluctantly signed up because a) have had some health issues in the past which would not be covid friendly and b) I know wife, whilst not applying pressure, really wanted me to do it.

Had first shot without much drama, and turned up for second appointment. Standing in queue, I read the do you have any of these symptoms - cough etc. Yes I had two or three of them, and told the person who asked me when booking in. She didn't really know what to do, and asked me did I want to go ahead to which I replied I had no idea, was it safe to do so? She summoned a doctor who basically said the same thing, did I want to have the vaccine despite having the symptoms? Again I said I had no idea, is it safe to do so? He was pretty non committal and was not able to give me any info or advice, other than saying it was up to me. Eventually I said I would do whatever he specifically recommended, at which point he said not to get second shot, go away get a PCR and set up another appointment. None of it inspired confidence.

First rescheduled appointment was a clash, and by the time I got the next one the nonsense had really ramped up - covid certs, the pandemic of the unvaccinated, former health ministers blaming the unvaxxed for full ICUs etc etc.

The more of this bullying and discrimination I heard, the more I thought "Feck it, I'm not getting the second shot."

A good friend of mine shared with me his strong opinions about the importance of getting vaccinated. He's a very smart guy, well informed and a critical thinker who in the past has more often been right than wrong. I reminded him that when a successful vaccine was first announced, pre approval, he raised concerns about the speed of development etc and expressed some misgivings about taking it. At the time I was the one who was pro getting vaccinated.

After having had the vaccine his capacity for independent thought on the subject seemed to have vanished. Ultimately his argument for taking the vaccine came down to "Antivaxxers are loons. I'd rather be on the side of those who trust science than the mad conspiracy theorists who are worried about 5G microchips."

This amazed me. Even this guy had boiled it down to what side are you on. It should not be about "sides" but if it must, I will always be on the other side of those who are enthusiastically calling for covid passports and the ostracisation of their fellow citizens.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342673#Comment_118342673

But people have been railing against 'the vaccine' since we have had or will have Pfizer, Moderna, Oxford AZ, J&J and Janssen. Entirely different products. Do you not agree that there seems to be some deliberate obfuscation by anti-vaxxers, who with their huge vaccine expertise must be aware of this?

Wibbs · 21-12-2021 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354915#Comment_118354915

J&J and Janssen are the same vaccine. AZ and J&J are viral vectors, Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA vectors. The "huge vaccine expertise" stuff is present on all sides to be fair.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354950#Comment_118354950

Right, so there have been at least 4 vaccines, soon be more, in use in Ireland, in addition to another rake of vaccines from other manufacturers not even available in this country. So why do anti-vaxxers talk about 'the vaccine'?

Wibbs · 21-12-2021 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354961#Comment_118354961

You seem to be the one talking about "the vaccine" the most. You also seem confused about the number that were available here and conflated J&J and Janssen which is the same company. Without running to Prof. Google do you know the difference between viral vector and mRNA vaccines? I suspect not. General ignorance while certainly present to a strong degree in them is hardly exclusive to the anti vaxxers.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354985#Comment_118354985

I'm not sure why you are attacking me, as I don't profess the medical knowledge required to make decisions on the usefulness of the vaccine: I entrust that to medical experts. And the medical experts have weighed in, as you may have heard at some point over the last year or two.

Anti-vaxxers do profess to have knowledge about this, to the degree that they actively discourage people from getting these life-saving vaccines and have now even started block booking vaccine appointments to prevent others getting them.

Why do they pretend all the vaccines are the same? And why do you refuse to answer this simple question?

Wibbs · 21-12-2021 10:17am

Maybe climb down off your cross for a moment. I'm not "attacking" you. I'm not refusing to answer your question either. There were four vaccines in use in Ireland. There aren't "at least five". Two were viral vector, now not available, two were mRNA based, at the moment the only choice in town. As for anti vaxxers, I have zero clue, nor care what some muppet on facebook thinks about 5g/microsoft/quantum vaccines, so can't answer for them. I merely responded to your post stating that there were "at least five" vaccines in use in Ireland where the reality is that there is only one choice of type of vaccine in Ireland today. Simple as that.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355073#Comment_118355073

There are two available - they happen to use the same technology. If you can buy a hybrid from Toyota and another hybrid from Ford, is there only one car available for sale?

So you're wrong there for a start. In addition, 2 others have been used by the state (with another different technology). And more have been approved will be used in the future.

Not sure what your agenda is in trying to obfuscate this. It's black and white.

Wibbs · 21-12-2021 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355475#Comment_118355475

There are two available - they happen to use the same technology. If you can buy a hybrid from Toyota and another hybrid from Ford, is there only one car available for sale?

So you're wrong there for a start.

Your confidence is inspiring, if misguided. If you can only buy a hybrid from Toyota and another hybrid from Ford in Ireland, then you can only buy a hybrid car in Ireland. If you want a full EV, or an ICE car you're right outa luck. I'm really not sure what point you're struggling to make here?

Not sure what your agenda is in trying to obfuscate this. It's black and white.

Good god man, you're running with "agendas" now? I am being black and white and precise and clear about which vaccines were and are available and the differences between them. You're the one who came out of the gate even unsure about the number of them.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355578#Comment_118355578

The point you are struggling to understand is that a Ford hybrid and a Toyota hybrid are not the same car. They are different cars, and even have different engines that use the same basic technology, but implemented in different ways. I'm not sure I can make it any simpler for you. If you still think this is one car, I genuinely feel sorry for you.

I am asking why the anti-vax movement tries to pretend there is a single vaccine when there must be nearly a dozen different vaccines worldwide at this point. If you have no view on why this is so, that is fine. But perhaps you should add to your 55,000+ posts addressing a different topic?

hometruths · 21-12-2021 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342430#Comment_118342430

One other thing to call out here: there are at least 5 COVID vaccines in use in Ireland. Each one is different to the others, and there are even completely different mechanisms whereby they create immunity.

Bit of a stretch to call the protection they offer "immunity" to be honest.

astrofool · 21-12-2021 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355894#Comment_118355894

To be fair, that's a misunderstanding on your part of what vaccine immunity means. Barring the very rare blood clotting issue with the Adenovector vaccines (where the mechanism of how it happens is understood and future versions should be able to eliminate it) there's been no "surprising" side effects from the vaccines after billions given. Myocarditis is very rare but also occurs with other vaccines that stimulate the immune system (which means it's generally more likely for the person if they contract COVID itself), allergies are also rare but happen with all medicines.

To be honest, it does seen you have an issue with it, I would advise to talk to your own GP about it as it sounds like those at the MVC weren't prepared to give advice (which is fair as they don't know your medical history), we're not quite at the "babying" stage for people (and with 93% adult take up, it probably isn't necessary, offering a free burger is unlikely to change minds).

The COVID pass will remain as long as the unvaccinated use of the health service remains disproportionate and the health service is under pressure, it's beyond it's use as a stick, the few remaining will howl about it, but there is a safe, simple option for them.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355894#Comment_118355894

It is immunity. Immunity in a medical/scientific sense does not mean that you are completely invulnerable to something. This is one of the problems when specialised topics with a body of research behind them are in the public domain: words do not always have the same meaning in both contexts.

The Wikipedia definition for example:

>In biology, immunity is the capability of multicellular organisms to resist harmful microorganisms.

hometruths · 21-12-2021 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356081#Comment_118356081

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356382#Comment_118356382

To be fair, that's a misunderstanding on your part of what vaccine immunity means.

I'm consistently amazed at how many people, this time last year, understood that being immune to a disease meant not ending up in ICU or whatever the latest definition is.

I always understood that if you were immune to a disease, you were unlikely to suffer from it, and hence spread it.

Must have been too many years I spent studying languages and etymology and not enough time reading Wikipedia.

Here's a question for those who understand the concept of immunity better than I:

What does herd immunity mean? And why don't we have it if the vaccines are granting immunity and we have 93% of adults vaccinated? Are we ever likely to get herd immunity via vaccination?

astrofool · 21-12-2021 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356730#Comment_118356730

Herd immunity is based on the ability of the vaccinated/infected population to reduce transmission to reduce R below 1 (then the virus dies out), the vaccines seem to do this post vaccination but as immunity wanes, R increases and allows the virus to continue to circulate (same as measles is still in circulation despite Ireland being at herd immunity levels for it).

A high starting R number means more of the population need to be vaccinated for herd immunity to be achieved, it may not be fully possible with COVID (similar to Flu vaccination but for different reasons), we are currently at about 75% vaccinated (whole population) which is too low a % for herd immunity to be achieved.

If we could vaccinate everyone in the world in the same 2 month period, we'd probably see it die out, but for logistical reasons, that's impossible, so the best thing to do is get as many as possible vaccinated and then manage the impact on the health system on the basis that infections and vaccinations should get us to herd immunity, but that takes time.

And yes, if you are vaccinated, you are very unlikely to suffer from it, but at high numbers, unlikely means that a few still get it and have severe side effects (up to and including death) from SARS-COV2.

hometruths · 21-12-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356759#Comment_118356759

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Interesting that the immunity referred to in "herd immunity" appears to mean that the bulk of people in the herd are not infected/transmitting whereas mere immunity simply means protected from severe outcomes such as ICU.

No wonder I misunderstand these things!

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357031#Comment_118357031

The breadth of human activity and knowledge is vast these days. Maybe 300 years ago was the last time that a brilliiant, educated person could understand everything. I don't feel bad about not understanding huge swathes of technology or crafts. I have expertise in my little corner, and I trust that the folks who have jumped through the same/similar hoops as I have are expert in theirs.

Perhaps this is why vaccine reluctance is least in the folks who understand the most about the biology? And highest amongst those who have less understanding of expertise in any field (first relevant study that Google throws up is this).

hometruths · 21-12-2021 9:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358026#Comment_118358026

That's very understanding of you, but apologies, I was being a little sarcastic. I understand perfectly well what both immunity and herd immunity mean. Or at least what they used to mean.

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358126#Comment_118358126

Ok, then I'm not sure what you are questioning? We have established that the 'common' meaning of immunity (e.g. 'I'm immune to your sarcasm' 😜) is quite different from the scientific meaning of immunity in biology. Is there something else that needs clarification?

hometruths · 21-12-2021 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358312#Comment_118358312

I'm far from convinced that we have established the medical meaning of immunity in terms of a doctor saying 'I recommend you take this vaccine because it will help give you immunity from this disease".

But no worries, I don't need clarification on the meaning of immunity. As I said I understand it perfectly well.

Most vaccine hesitancy does not come down to public misunderstanding the concept of immunity or indeed, herd immunity.

It is a result of our politicians overestimating the effectiveness of the vaccine. This time 12 months ago, there was a sense that vaccines would end the pandemic, that herd immunity was a realistic possibility and life could go back to normal.

It is now clear that these vaccines are not providing as much immunity as initially hoped, (although they have undoubted other benefits more akin to an antiviral drug) and herd immunity is currently a pipe dream.

I don't really have a problem with the fact these vaccines will not get us to herd immunity, it's the sort of Stockholm Syndrome effect I object to.

Rather than say let's hope Pfizer et al are continuing to improve these and they will come out with a superior v2, everybody seems to be shifting the goalposts on what immune/immunity/immunisation etc means in a bid to claim that the vaccines are fantastic and our only problem is we're not taking them regularly enough and not giving them to children fast enough.

It's madness. And many people who are vaccine hesitant are looking at this, scratching their heads and thinking the more these vaccine goalposts shift, the more questions it raises about the vaccine.

And then they hear people claim that in fact the goalposts have not shifted, most people totally expected this is where we'd be almost 12 months into an immunisation programme with an astonishingly high take up, immunity doesn't mean what it means with other vaccines, and if you didn't understand that 12 months ago then you're probably just a bit thick, but don't worry the smart people will keep you right.

Totally bonkers!

generic_throwaway · 21-12-2021 10:34pm

Well I guess the way I see I see it going from here is that the disease becomes endemic, like a more deadly version of the flu that occasionally kills perfectly healthy people and even babies. You get an annual jab to cover you for when (no longer if) you get the common strains. We will lose a lot of people to this on an ongoing basis - although I'd expect treatments and survivability to improve, when everyone is getting it the number of fatalities still increases.

Some decisions have to be made - do we double our intensive care provision (at great cost) to cope with this on an ongoing basis? Do we require vaccinations to attend schools and colleges and workplaces? Do we provide different health services for people who chose not to take precautions?

But we're not putting the genie back in the bottle.

I'm not sure why you have contempt for expertise though. It's become a real thing in the Trumpy post-truth world.

hometruths · 21-12-2021 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358541#Comment_118358541

What expertise did I show contempt for?

JimmyVik · 22-12-2021 10:11am

I always get the flu vaccine. Happy to vaccinate kids. Even got the chicken pox vaccine for kids.

I took the 2 pfizer jabs happily.

As time went on I started to think that the whole vaccine program is vaccinate first and see if it works later. Not really scientific and in my mind kinda dangerous science.

So i was thinking about not getting the booster. In the end i decided to get the booster.

Now I hear Israel is starting their 4th dose just 4 months after the 3rd dose.

Im even more convinced this is hot and hope.

So yesterday got an email from the school about vaccinating 5 year olds, together with a link to the HSE on the subject. I read it and its vague.

The HSE have gone from telling us kids cant get it, to kids get a very mild dose, to kids cant spread it to vaccinate the kids now.

So on their website i decided to look of the stats and severity of the disease in 5 year olds and nothing just vagueness. What i wanted to read was something like, and im making these figures up "10000 children age 5 got it. 4800 were very mild symptoms. 200 went to hospital, 1 ended up in ICU, 1 died. Those who went to hospital 90% had underlying issues. The one who died was already very sick".

Thats what you need to make an informed decision. Not the drivel from the HSE we have constantly been getting.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359704#Comment_118359704

Totally agree with all this.

On making an informed decision for 5 year olds I found reading the full NIAC report very helpful.

https://rcpi-live-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/NIAC-Recommendations-on-COVID-19-vaccination-for-children-aged-5-to-11-years.pdf

People who reluctantly got vaccinated, how has your life been affected?

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