S2S Cycleway - northside

Etc · 20-04-2021 3:33pm

buffalo wrote: »

Why are you framing it as a leisure track? Do people not use it to go to work? What even is a leisure track? When people talk about leisure cyclists, they generally mean people in lycra going for long cycles at the weekend, so are you suggesting that the track is meant for that?

I think the point is it's not dedicated for roadies so is used by the gamut including cycling to work, I use it for getting into the city centre for work.

General volume of both pedestrians and cyclists is really the issue these days, it's reaching critical mass.

odyssey06 · 20-04-2021 3:34pm

buffalo wrote: »

Why are you framing it as a leisure track? Do people not use it to go to work? What even is a leisure track? When people talk about leisure cyclists, they generally mean people in lycra going for long cycles at the weekend, so are you suggesting that the track is meant for that?

And families and kids use it for leisurely cycles on weekends.
At those times it's not a place to be trying to hit personal bests for dedicated cycling groups.
Dunno why you are being so disingenuous here.

rainagain · 20-04-2021 3:39pm

buffalo wrote: »

Has anybody suggested we should stop building unsegregated cycle tracks? Or pointed out that non-grade-separated pseudo-shared space is a disaster once it goes beyond light usage?

I'd like to see segregated cycle tracks.

I exercise a guide dog and it's awkward walking her on paths that are shared between cyclists and pedestrians when the cycle path is to the left - I think her training is to stay on the left side of the path, she keeps pulling to move over. Before walking her I never give it a thought, I walk or cycle on "my" side of the path.

(this website is interesting reading http://www.copenhagenize.com/)

mrcheez · 20-04-2021 3:47pm

Etc wrote: »

General volume of both pedestrians and cyclists is really the issue these days, it's reaching critical mass.

That's only really an issue at the weekends or evenings.

The mornings are still amazing and fairly sparse if you head out before the school kids. Get the sunrise and head up to Howth summit to complete the ritual.

buffalo · 20-04-2021 3:52pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

And families and kids use it for leisurely cycles on weekends.
At those times it's not a place to be trying to hit personal bests for dedicated cycling groups.
Dunno why you are being so disingenuous here.

My point is that it's a cycle track, meant for people to cycle on. Trying to frame it as some sort of family play area is disingenuous.

The issue is not people cycling at speed - people cycling at speed causing a bother is a symptom of the bad design which lacks segregation, which is exacerbated by the heavy usage by both cyclists and pedestrians.

Trying to blame the cyclists for cycling or the pedestrians for existing is scapegoating. We need more and better designed infrastructure for both groups.

odyssey06 · 20-04-2021 4:03pm

buffalo wrote: »

My point is that it's a cycle track, meant for people to cycle on. Trying to frame it as some sort of family play area is disingenuous.

The issue is not people cycling at speed - people cycling at speed causing a bother is a symptom of the bad design which lacks segregation, which is exacerbated by the heavy usage by both cyclists and pedestrians.

Trying to blame the cyclists for cycling or the pedestrians for existing is scapegoating. We need more and better designed infrastructure for both groups.

It's meant for cyclists of various abilities and ages to cycle on.
One of its uses is as a family cycling area.
When it is being used for that purpose, it is also suitable for high speed training? There's an issue there.

I don't see how 'segregated' cycling if by segregation of cyclists from pedestrians addresses the issue of its shared use by those different cyclists?

Etc · 20-04-2021 4:06pm

mrcheez wrote: »

That's only really an issue at the weekends or evenings.

The mornings are still amazing and fairly sparse if you head out before the school kids. Get the sunrise and head up to Howth summit to complete the ritual.

True, I was on it today but when it's busy on evenings or weekends it's crazy especially if the sun is out. I hate going near it then.

Type 17 · 20-04-2021 4:09pm

All users have to remember that it's a public shared facility, so everyone has a right to be there, and behave accordingly - the main problems are that inexperienced users often stop in the track, many pedestrians don't look before crossing, and some faster riders don't want to stop for anything and expect others (including oncoming cyclists) to keep out of their way.

While I do ride fast there when it's safe, my approach is that it's a shared facility and while I am enjoying the speed/lack of traffic lights, I'm not actually in a hurry, so stopping/slowing for others should be no trouble.
However, since Covid, I've stopped using it at weekends and at mid-mornings on sunny weekdays, as there's too much traffic to keep moving smoothly, and too many pedestrians to try and second-guess.

It's annoying though, as it's the best route to NCD for Southsiders.

Full segregation on busy facilities is the only way forward, but under-specc'ing transport infrastructure and having to subsequently revise it is a national pastime (eg: Red Cow Roundabout and single-lane sliproads on the M50). On the S2S, the segregated (by a kerb/footpath) section along the front of St Annes Park is much safer and more relaxing.

buffalo · 20-04-2021 5:49pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't see how 'segregated' cycling if by segregation of cyclists from pedestrians addresses the issue of its shared use by those different cyclists?

Well, how many complaints are about the completely segregated section from Alfie Byrne Road to Woodenbridge, compared to the 'white line down the middle' section from the causeway to Sutton?

Type 17 · 20-04-2021 6:15pm

The section from Alfie Byrne Rd to the Wooden Bridge is not segregated at all - the area in front of Clontarf Garda Station and the car park are a disaster, with pedestrians who want to walk towards Fairview walking along the bike path. Additionally, there are potential issues at the swimming baths, the Dublin Bus/Yacht Club car park and around the car park and pumping station at the bottom of Vernon Avenue.

I see many more near-misses in these areas than north of the Causeway.

odyssey06 · 20-04-2021 6:46pm

Type 17 wrote: »

The section from Alfie Byrne Rd to the Wooden Bridge is not segregated at all - the area in front of Clontarf Garda Station and the car park are a disaster, with pedestrians who want to walk towards Fairview walking along the bike path. Additionally, there are potential issues at the swimming baths, the Dublin Bus/Yacht Club car park and around the car park and pumping station at the bottom of Vernon Avenue. I see many more near-misses in these areas than north of the Causeway.

There are sections of it that are dedicated specifically for cycling and there's no adjacent footpaths though?

Specifically, there needs to be another pedestrian path to the promenade at Clontarf Garda Station. The one that used to be there (inline with Lotts & Co) was covered over during the drainage works and never restored - I referred it to local councillor at the time but nothing happened.

Type 17 · 20-04-2021 6:57pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

There are sections of it that are dedicated specifically for cycling and there's no adjacent footpaths though?

Yes, those sections aren't bad (although mostly a bit narrow), but the problem is that cyclists are zooming along (and peds are walking along in cyclist-free areas) and then suddenly they come to a crossing point or pedestrian area only separated by paint and suddenly the circumstances have changed and there's a much bigger potential for conflict - the area north of the Causeway is better/safer because the conflict-potential remains more constant, so everyone is more careful, overall.

mrcheez · 20-12-2021 12:46pm

I see they've blocked cyclists cycling over the wooden bridge now.

Great way to encourage more cycling and less cars on wooden bridge... and will be particularly helpful come Spring/Summer.

odyssey06 · 20-12-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351009#Comment_118351009

Hasn't there been some accidents \ injuries from people cycling over and having a wobble? I think regular users know enough to be careful but daytrippers and that old bridge may not be a good combo...

mrcheez · 20-12-2021 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351032#Comment_118351032

I wonder if they could implement some sort of surfacing of the bridge to put a cycle lane in place in the car section?

Thelonious Monk · 21-12-2021 10:39am

They can f*ck off if they think I'm not cycling over that. No restrictions on cars of course, it is insane that they allow cars to use that bridge. Anyway there isn't enough room to wheel bikes along the sides of the bridge really.

odyssey06 · 21-12-2021 10:43am

I think it's more if someone does have a tumble the council (or port authority?) can point to the signs and say you can't sue us.

mrcheez · 21-12-2021 10:57am

I would have thought it was better to put up WARNING signs. Leave it up to us to decide.

What's next, stop pedestrians in case they slip on the ice when the bridge is iced over? I'm certain some people have slipped there too.

It's ridiculous to put up cycling bans in this day when the whole idea is to ENCOURAGE more people to use bikes.

Regardless, I was driving by there yesterday and saw several people cycling down it...

odyssey06 · 21-12-2021 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355253#Comment_118355253

It's as much honoured in the breach as the observance.

Yeah warning signs would make a lot more sense to me at least but maybe not to Lionez Hutzs of the world :(

magicbastarder · 21-12-2021 11:38am

there's a reason that they'd not want people cycling across the bridge, i suspect, and that's because of the way the wooden beams are laid. you could come a cropper on narrow tyres, in the same way bike tyres get caught in tram lines. i would dismount if i was on my road bike.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3600758,-6.1809106,2a,75y,167.71h,74.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scFcMLAFZxGaC8jv7FjD2pA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Weepsie · 21-12-2021 12:15pm

I find the rumble strips used for blind people at the end of cycle paths are lethal on the road bike unless I got at an angle. The dotted ones are on the footpath section. They should be the other way round or the lines should be horizontal

Shedite27 · 21-12-2021 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355421#Comment_118355421

Yeah exactly, same reason you shouldn't cycle on tram lines

mrcheez · 21-12-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355421#Comment_118355421

Defo avoid the pedestrian sections as the spacing between beams seems wider, but the car section seems fine as long as you cycle down slightly criss-crossing between the beams

Etc · 21-12-2021 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355772#Comment_118355772

But a casual cyclist won’t think to do that and there’s a lot of casual cyclists down around there on Dublin bikes etc.

Thelonious Monk · 21-12-2021 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357049#Comment_118357049

I've never heard of anyone being harmed cycling over there but I remember a car somehow stumbled into the water off the rocks just over the bridge recently, yet I don't hear for any calls for cars to be banned!

Weepsie · 21-12-2021 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357078#Comment_118357078

That takes a special kind of bad driving

Seth Brundle · 21-12-2021 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357274#Comment_118357274

I grew up in Clontarf and in my teens worked in the bar in the Royal Dublin GC so was quite familiar with Bull Island. There was a lot of people driving there with that special kind of bad driving!

mrcheez · 21-12-2021 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357049#Comment_118357049

A Dublin Bike tyre (or any bike tyre that isn't a thin slick tyre) won't slip through those gaps... and generally speaking those that cycle with thin slick tyres tend to be fairly adept cyclists that would be able to know the risks they were taking going over that bridge.

I still think an outright ban is not the way to go... a sign cautioning users and claiming they need to take responsibility is the better option.

It will have nary an effect come the spring/summer though as people will continue cycling up to go swimming.

Thelonious Monk · 21-12-2021 7:18pm

Ban cars from the wooden bridge and let them use the causeway, it's a f*cking sh*tshow on a nice day and the Garda often have to close it anyway, a no brainer to close it to cars

mrcheez · 22-12-2021 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357684#Comment_118357684

Though it would be a fair trek to lug the kitesurf equipment.. they prob just need to widen the road there if possible.

Huge project I imagine.

S2S Cycleway - northside

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