Opinions on different Marathon Training plans

I'll only comment on the 2Q plan as that's the only one of the ones you listed that I've done a deep dive on.

Given your history and experience level I'd steer clear...the Daniels plan really looks like its set up for more experienced runners. Some of the sessions are monsters. If I didn't have 5 years of solid consistent running 6-7 days a week with two sessions, one long run per week and plenty of high volume sessions I'd have steered clear.

Best of luck with choosing one. It's half the enjoyment of the whole process!

If some weeks only have two runs you are definitely going to struggle, with any plan. Higdon has a great range of plans. I used one (Novice 2, I think) for my own first marathon and it worked well. It’s all about getting in enough mileage, at the right paces. Definitely not JD, as swashbuckler says. Hanson has a beginner plan that might work too.

As Murph has alluded to

The success or failure based around any of these plans isn't the specifics but more the consistency

FIRST tends to get bad rap due to lack of run specific training but (and its a big but) the area many fall down here is that they don't take the Cross training as seriously for consistency. Ultimately the plan is designed with the heavy emphasis here because the number of run sessions is lower it has to over compensate

JD plans again require consistency but the difference here being that lack of consistency will result in much higher injury risk. There are many caveats to the plans which are explained earlier in the books that often get ignored (like time based reps rather than distance once you are slower than a particular level)

HH and Galloway are more forgiving plans in terms of consistency but as a result they have lowest ceiling in terms of optimal training. Generally these plans are designed towards those looking to complete and as a result tend to have higher success rates

Hanson training would be very much in line with the athletic club model.I wouldn't truly view them as marathon specific but the cumulative effect of solid training week in and week out will work for 90% of people especially if you haven't grown up in the running scene. I would say though that the success here also revolves around consistency as the strength you build up tends to be based around the cumulative strength built up over weeks and months. It's attritional though so niggles and bumps can be expected and if consistency is an issue you are likely not gonna get the true benefits from the training being done (sessions not overly hard in isolation but benefit comes from stringing 8-10 heavy weeks of them back to back when body is tired as hell)

Do you mind me asking, and apologies if you said it already but do you have a particular target time in mind and is this your first marathon? Have you seen the DCM novices plan?

Here is the man himself discussing time vs distance in relation to long runs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO1hQ_kplgo&list=PLnAKD1Q8PRQ-lo2fMXbYdLyaJUHznbfvG&index=12

Unfortunately my copy is out on loan at an unknown location (always take photos of a person holding the book you are loaning them) but If I remember correctly this was general guideline as opposed to being specific to the elite plans.

Would make sense though based off the session you listed above 48 min @ MP sounds about right

I have no doubt it suits my points were not a criticism of the plan in the slightest I am a big fan of this type of training and I would advise this styled approach for the large majority of people here my points around specificity are more abstract in general sense. By in large the running population of Ireland don't have the foundational background of 10+ years of training with good mix middle to long distance training exposure so this sort of style of training is more important than specificity

I agree with you on the 20 mile debate. To be honest I think for alot of people that is actually one of the pluses of the plan they are not being overtrained with necessity for time on feet. There is a US running coach who explained the phenomenon as "aerobic fitness preceding structural intensity" the idea being take a novice cyclist throw them on a bike and they might go for a few hours, apply the same to a runner and they might get 70 min. We need to get the body used to the pounding much more than developing aerobically, the issue being that this build up is slower and alot easier to overload

Well definitely look at DCM novices plan..I can't link it as I'm on my mobile .maybe someone else can help there? It's tried and trusted for all the DCM novices every year.

Unless you have a good few years experience at running sessions and regular long runs I'd be a little careful at going down the route of some of those plans linked in the wiki site especially the likes of Hansen, Daniels, even pfitzinger. Maybe hal higdon would be the safest bet. Would you consider getting coaching for your first marathon?

It has to be said that the new running shoes (High stack, Carbon Plate types) should have a positive effect on the 'time on feet'/pounding element of traditional plans. That requirement is not as great now: pounding the pavement for 26 miles isn't what it used to be (just look at vastly reduced marathon recovery times)

I think it was specified that the OP might occasionally have weeks where only a couple of runs might happen due to life etc. and that specifically was what I was addressing (Obviously, if someone is recovering from injury/illness that is a completely different set of circumstances). As has been noted in the preceding posts many of these general schedules rely on accumulated fatigue. If sessions are designed expecting accumulated fatigue and the runner is not fatigued then the session/schedule will not achieve what it intends to achieve: it will be too easy. To get 'back on track' there a number of approaches. One approach would be to make the next session harder (on paper) so that it will force the runner back into the same ballpark of adaption/recovery as if the training hadn't been missed. That isn't overtraining. In general as it's a marathon being targeted I would advise the addition of difficulty on a session to be biased towards the endurance side ie by adding volume to the session. Idea here is to keep the remedy as simple as possible. There can be a lot of emotional fatigue wasted on worrying over missed training and complex remedies to schedules to compensate. Simple is best.

The second suggestion does trump the first on simplicity. The caveat that I should have mentioned is that a buffer of a couple of extra weeks to the schedule might be recommended if training is to be missed. That gives the runner the space to carry out the small endurance block and keep all the sessions/elements in the schedule.

Do the shoes subtract from the accumulated fatigue element though ?

Hopefully demfad and ecoli both chime in here coz both are extremely knowledgeable but let me give my non expert take on some of what you have asked.

I remember seeing a really good analogy way back on what you are trying to achieve with training. There's loads of science to it all and you can quickly go down a rabbit hole and boggle the brain. I always like to understand as much of it as possible but try to bring it back to simple terms. Here's how I think of it. Imagine you give your body a task and it struggles to do it. The body's response to that is to try and make that task easier the next time. It's basic "survival of the fittest, adapt or die" caveman stuff. So you want to embarrass the body just enough so that it will adapt to the load you have placed on it. If you embarrass the body too much it just breaks down. If you dont embarrass it enough then it wont really adapt to the task it's being asked to do.

So in training for a marathon you are progressively trying to embarrass the body enough so that it will adapt to run 26.2 miles at your given pace.

Ideally we would simply train 26.2 miles in training but for obvious reasons thats not possible. My understanding of cumulative fatigue is that it helps the body adapt to those latter stages of the marathon. Think of it this way. If you ran two sessions a week and rested the other five days then you're gonna be very fresh for those two sessions. How will that prepare you for mile 22 or 23 of a marathon. Whereas the idea of cumulative fatigue is your continually asking the body to do a little more work on tired legs, recover, adapt and repeat. But its a balancing act and a very hard one to get right. Overdo it and the body will break down rather than adapt.

It's one of the reasons elites and really strong runners tend to have high mileage, double days etc (not always but generally speaking). They have adapted over time and can take the training load and simply more miles equals more of a stimulus. There are exceptions, dont get me wrong and some people do well off much lower mileage than others.

So you're right to be a little cautious but you simply cant train effectively for a marathon without being tired. You absolutely will not be fresh all the time. If you are, then you're in for a shock when you hit mile 16, 17, 18 and so on on the day itself. Its why successful marathoners build on each block. There are so many questions as a marathon newbie (same for me by the way) - is this normal, should I feel this way, was that too hard etc etc. After successive marathon blocks the experience builds and people tend to get a feel for whats right or wrong for them.

We're all told to listen to the body - the trouble is no-one can tell us what its trying to say - its all trial and error and very individualised. Best thing to do is draw on the experience of others. I'm not great at reading back over old threads on here (I really should) but I remember following the DCM novices threads and all the newbies felt the same way and had the same questions. Its worth reading through one , if only to get a sense that you're not alone in wondering these things.

To your second question. There is no one set way. Some people are 3 up one down. Others are never really down. It also depends what you are training for, what phase of training you are in - are you in a specific block, are you just training away etc etc. The best thing to do is not to try and figure it all out now. Try something, ask questions, see how it goes, try something new.......You'll do well to find anyone on here that has stuck to the same formula throughout their running lives. The one thing I will say is it is good to have some sort of plan for the year and then try to phase your training a bit. A lot of people just pluck a plan from a book without really thinking how well prepared they are to execute that plan. Different plans make different assumptions. Phasing of training is something I find really interesting and something i still havent really figured out.

Finally - there are no stupid questions.

Sorry for the essay!

So, the rest weeks could be viewed as a respite from fatigue built up over the preceding weeks. Most of the schedules might have the runner pushing the envelope out with volume. Volume is needed to increase overall fitness and leg strenght as a base for the bigger sessions and long runs. So the schedules may take account that you'll be a little tired during sessions and have them structured accordingly.

Anyway, a low mileage week due to life might have similar affect on you to a scheduled rest week and you may not get the benefit of the upcoming week.

If you are very tired leggy, then maybe you should go with the gut as you are doing and take an easy day. The volume should have you pleasantly fatigued with more tiredness after harder days. You should be able to run after a harder day. We are amateurs and have work/life to do as well as running. We shouldn't be wrecked. Be conservative early in the schedule and you'll naturally get stronger. Run the easy runs as if you're 'gathering' energy rather than using it.

Wow - training in Kenya nice . Best of luck, the experience will be amazing .

I guess for high achieving Athletes your probably right with regards to how their schedules will look taking the “ super “ shoes into account. It may take a while to filter through to the masses though although most folk wouldn’t be using these shoes all the time anyway .

I guess what I am addressing here is how to adapt a one size fits all schedule if training is missed. As endurance is the focus for marathons, the sessions and long runs tend to be developed by extending the quality or lenght rather than making them faster. If the runner is less fatigued then expected arriving at the session then in the majority of sessions that can be addressed by extdning the session/run at the same intensity. As for recovery it is critical that the runner understands and therefore has the tools to carry out correct recovery. So a the dimensions of the recovery run are insignificant compared to the overarching objective that recovery is achieved. For marathon training the runner runs at his/her recovery intensity or less for a distance short enough that recovery is achieved. As the runner gets fitter this distance wil increase. The changes made to a session above should not warrant an extra days recovery.

As a worrier myself and someone who is quite busy I think things that can be planned ahead and repeated should be. For example, having a 'niggle block' is very useful. So if a runner feels a niggle they do not try and solve it on the fly but immediately retreat into a block, say 1 day off, 1 day recovery, 1 day easy and then assess. Can be overkill sometimes but you are getting consistency by avoiding down time from injury and reducing emotional fatigue and worry by activating the 'formula' rather than working it out every time. Caveat is that some niggles should require more scrutiny but the runner would probably twig those occasions.

My experience with the runners is based on my self and chatting to a few others but I think older runners benefit even more by being able to basically run more with less muscle damage/niggles. Older folk aren't as quick to process the food as well so have to watch the intake more. Being able to run more really helps there too. When you're over 45 IMO these are huge benefits. Obviously they help with average speeds too but being able to train more as a master is a huge benefit for them.

If senior runners can recover better and or run more then they could potentially do a bigger amount of training and therefore a bigger amount of specific work leading to faster times. But the jury is still out there. I don't know if those at the very pointy end are able to leverage the new technology into more volume at specific paces.

I didn’t do the marathon last year . I used the schedule in 2019 and unfortunately didn’t go under 4 , had a bad day at the office ( 4:05) . My training partner who also used it went under( 3:57) . I have the plan redone for this year - happy to share if you want .

Any marathon plan you need to be confident in it. No point in doing it if you feel it’s not for you. Maybe you feel not enough mp runs in it to give you confidence it on the day.