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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Nail on head there.


    The eastern part of the Ukraine they occupied had a huge swathe of Russians moved during the times of the USSR. Russia is playing a clever game by pushing NATO and NATO is responding. Only today the heads of state for Poland and Lithuania met to ascertain what they would do starting with a very strong statement they would not tolerate it. Russia does not want foreign bases from NATO countries in their adjacent neighbours and its easy to see why. Democrats see this as a way of boosting popularity on the home front with a declaration that they will stand up to the big bad bear. With Russia holding the strings on the gas supply , most wont tackle them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Selenophile


    @Liberty_Bear

    "Only today the heads of state for Poland and Lithuania met to ascertain what they would do starting with a very strong statement they would not tolerate it."


    Did they say what will they actually do ? And does "only today" means that they actually haven't discussed the topic earlier ? The news about Russian troops are not really fresh, and considering all the talk from Biden etc. I assumed all of them already had discussions and made some plans: SWIFT and the rest for beginning. Does it actually mean they thought that a threat of economic sanctions would be enough to make Russia back off ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Absolutely nothing to do with democrats or republicans



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    They called for sanctions today though I think they mean economic sanctions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Trump was aligned to the Russians (for whatever reasons), Biden is keen to show he has the brawn as much as the brains to do so/.


    Biden has said (as I saw on CNN) that he is ready to act..Obama rolled back on sanctions (if I remember)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Selenophile


    Thanks. So nothing new, really. That's American plan since news of Russian troops came in.

    The way I see it, there are two options:

    1) West accepts some of the Russian demands (the ones that are really important to Russia, like "no Ukraine in NATO" and "No NATO missiles close to Russian border", and we all continue to fight Covid.

    2) Russians establish defense line along Dnieper river and all of us in European continent try deal with our own economic problems...and fight Covid, of course.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Not in this context. There's a reason some of Trump's highest popularity ratings in the world were in Eastern Europe. Under his watch the US's military emphasis changed from the more traditional Germany and UK to Poland and the Baltics.


    That did not make the Russians happy. It is the continuation of a trend which started under Obama after the Crimea take-over. Trump's comments about his unhappiness with NATO politics made most of the press, but it in no way negatively affected the military positioning on the ground which leaned more and more Eastwards over time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,004 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Appeasement has a very poor track record. Putin's bluffs must be called.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    This is exactly what needs to happen ,

    This idea Putin needs to appeased is laughable ,he's nothing more than a common garden bully ,

    After putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 he even tried to stop Ukraine being involved in the Minsk treaty's which his forces repeatedly broke

    Post edited by Gatling on


  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Selenophile


    But if West introduce these terrible sanctions, don't you think Russia can fire back with similar, crippling sanctions ? If Russia stops gas supplies, it will have negative impact on its revenues, but on the other hand it will also seriously slow down German industry and probably in the rest of Central Europe. And lets face it, German economy is the most important one in the EU. USA probably wouldn't suffer that much, but we are in EU and I don't see how such development will be good for us. In other words, neither we in EU, nor Ukraine have much gain from ruined Russian economy, and we can all suffer from European industry brought to halt.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Stanley 1


    Such an arrangement is well within the scope of Putin's means.



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Protoman


    <>



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Many thanks for that. I was under the impression Trump was buddies with Russia but now you mention that it makes sense. Then again Trump talked out of both sides of his mouth so I shouldnt be surprised!



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,004 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    An exchange of sanctions would upset and inconvenience western Europe, but it would push Russia the rest of the way into the dark ages.

    If the gas stops flowing at their end, they are goosed. Its literally all they have. 85% of their exports are oil, gas and raw metals. Even the great Russian wheatfields only make up 3% of income. Its a timebomb of an economic mix.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The problem I have with sanctions as the solution is that it presumes that everyone is a purely rational actor and will react in the intended manner. The citizenry will survive all sorts of terrible deprivations for the national cause (You didn't see many people on the receiving end of the strategic bombing campaign either Allied or German crying for peace), and the people who are making the decisions are the least affected by them.

    It seems rare that sanctions have ever had a particularly notable effect in achieving a desired endstate.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    2022 could be the worst year in history.

    As these events unfold in Eastern Europe, Iran is now deemed mere months away from becoming a nuclear power, which is likely to precipitate a war with Israel and the Middle Eastern Sunni powers (KSA and the UAE) going nuclear to deter Iran.

    And in the Far East, China might make a bid for Taiwan.

    We are absolutely at a pivot moment in history.

    At the very least, we should recognize that the febrile concern about Climate Change has been overwrought — the real existential threat is a deliberate or accidental nuclear exchange that will turn us all to radioactive ash or blackened skeletons. This could happen at any moment given the way in which nuclear arsenals are rigged to launch on warning, on hair trigger alert. Once launched, there is no abort option.

    We must get rid of nuclear weapons. We are teetering on the abyss and amazingly it seems no one thinks a thermonuclear exchange could happen. I think to myself, how can it not happen, given enough time and tension in the world?



  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TefalBrain


    Biden has said the US will not send troops to defend Ukraine in the event of an invasion. Putin will smell this weakness and take advantage now before a change of president and policy in 3 years. The day the US left Afghanistan the real victory was for Russia, China, Iran, NK etc...In the face of bullies any step backwards spells the end.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Media will devote barrels of ink and terabytes of space to the minutia of COVID statistics. The presence of a disease which kills fewer than 1% of its victims justifies lockdowns, school closures, and internment of healthy individuals, all in the effort to reduce the viral spread and save a few thousand people.

    Yet a single thermonuclear bomb could incinerate 10 million people or more and reduce our cities to ash, in pretty much the time it takes to have your shower this morning. A thermonuclear missile could be launched from central Russia and strike Liverpool or Cardiff or Dublin Airport 15 minutes later. And Russia alone has 7000 of those missiles. All of them are pointed at cities you know, and quite possibly at several Irish targets. And no one in the media deigns it worthy of a mention. Far better to obsess over a 1.5 degree temperature rise over the next 50 years, or the new strain of the not-so-deadly virus we’ve gotten used to, than the nuclear annihilation of our spouses, children, parents, friends, towns, cities and countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    What does the article say ,

    It's behind a pay wall



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @Gatling here is an excerpt:

    Russia is behaving like a bully toward Ukraine. But why? What happened to the dream of Europe whole, free and at peace at the end of the Cold War? How did we get from that hopeful new dawn to the sobering prospect of military invasion in 21st-century Europe? The short answer is this: security delusions on all sides paved the way, delusions that are now on a dangerous collision course.

    Russia’s security delusions are easiest to grasp. Thinking military force can create genuine security and influence in neighbouring states is delusional. Recovering under Russian president Vladimir Putin after a decade of crisis, Russia began rebuilding its power capacities across post-Soviet space.

    ...

    The security delusions of the Nato West are more difficult to recognise. After the Cold War, the alliance decided to expand not disband. Nato’s “open door” policy allowed former Soviet republics like the Baltic States to join the alliance. Veteran Soviet security officials, like the conspiratorial-minded Putin, were forced to accept that their Cold War enemy was now at the border. Nato, of course, did not see it this way. It argued that all states have a sovereign right to choose their own defence orientation. Further, they claimed, Nato is not a threat to any power. Rather, it is a civilisational alliance advancing security and freedom.

    Critics, most prominently an aging American diplomat George Kennan, saw Nato expansion as a fateful error and predicted it would strengthen the hand of hardliners within Russia. He was right. The insecurity that Nato expansion was designed to address only redoubled insecurity as Russia rebuilt its power and reacted.

    A self-fulfilling security dilemma took hold. Nato expansion was justified by the very insecurity it produced. By 2008, Russia publicly asserted that Nato membership for Georgia and Ukraine were its defensive red lines. Nato radicalised matters when in April 2008 it declared, in defiance of Russia, that those two countries would one day become members of the alliance.

    Claiming Nato is not a threat to anyone is a delusion. Nato does not get to define Russia’s security perception. Presuming that expanding a military alliance to the border of an insecure great power advances security is delusional. Unilaterally exiting arms control agreements with Russia – like the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty the US left in August 2019 – is reckless behaviour.

    Admitting Ukraine into the Nato procurement system, training its troops, building Nato-standard infrastructure, and supplying advanced weapons to its forces without grasping that this may inflame Russian insecurity is also delusional thinking. It is living solely within one’s benevolent view of oneself.

    ...

    The West appears trapped by its fixation on the principle that all states have the sovereign right to choose their own military orientation. They cite articles from past security agreements. But they ignore other articles asserting that security is indivisible. Security requires responsibility and that begins with acknowledging collective sources of insecurity. The coronavirus pandemic has made clear the importance of qualifying individual free choice: we all have responsibilities to the collective good.

    Many in the West are also fixated with Munich and appeasement, Yalta and spheres of influence. This desire for historically selective moralised analogies betrays a desire to purify the present into simpleminded categories of good and evil. More disturbingly, it also propels desire for righteous action. Violence is soon easily justified.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Basically that Nato expansion has furthered the insecurity that drove its expansion. It strengthened the hardliners in Moscow. The article also says that Russia's annexations and invasions of its neighbours was driven by a desire to bring them in line but has usually backfired by making them more hostile and Pro Nato.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I wonder if Russia would accept some form of "finlandization" of Ukraine where it is guaranteed to be neutral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    How can Ukraine ever be independent when they have russian troops inside their own borders ,the so called separatist forces in East Ukraine are full time russian military and intelligence forces ,

    How can they ever be neutral under occupation



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I don't think they can. I meant neutral in return for getting control of all/most of their territory back. I'd imagine they'd never get Crimea back though. Almost any outcome would be preferable to being invaded and losing half/all your territory though. They're in an awful position with no committed ally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,305 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Funny how all the talking points about inflaming Russian insecurities manage to leave out the massive desire from those former Soviet counties to align with the west to protect themselves from Russia. It wasn't a case of NATO coercing them into the alliance, it was a existential necessity for them.


    Europe should call Putin's bluff. They should sanction him and Russia now. Quit forestalling the needed transition away from Russian gas. Height of foolishness for the Germans to decommission their reactors and leave themselves on the hook to Putin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Yes, the Germans decommissioning their reactors was a strategic mistake. I wonder though how many European citizens care enough about Ukrainian independence to tolerate higher energy prices? Very few I suspect.

    I know it's too late now but I wonder if the US should have aimed to have a Nato that included Russia in the 1990s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Care to actually link to the story?

    It looks like some whack propaganda you got there. RT doesn't refer to itself as "Russia state-controlled media".



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    RT doesn't refer to itself as state media of course they don't the rest of the world does.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/543861-us-pmc-chemical-provocation-ukraine/


    Whack propaganda no just the usual shite from rt



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  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    Yes and asking china to stop using coal fueled power stations is also causing gas prices to rise

    The west has been a leader in climate change, human rights social inclusion and peace at all costs its lost its way now it cant defend itself or keep warm in winter at elevated cost need to wake up.

    Russia wont stop at Ukraine it will want east germany back or we ill stop buying your BMWs



This discussion has been closed.
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