Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

hometruths · 22-12-2021 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361025#Comment_118361025

Perhaps you missed the bit in the post you quoted:

Yes vaccines are proving effective at reducing the severity of the outcome if you get covid

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360834#Comment_118360834

"covid certs are useful cause they prevent people exposure from higher risk members of the public"

How does a piece of paper prevent exposure? And who are these higher risk members of the public you mention?

"There's a reason why the unvaccinated account for a larger number proportional number of ICU cases"

Like I said already, the data showing the cases between vaccinated and unvaccinated needs to be broken down further before it can be considered worth debating, as like I mentioned a person isnt classified as fully vaccinated until after 14 days of getting the shot. This could mean that the majority of people in hospital could have had their 2nd dose and within that 14 day window

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360924#Comment_118360924

according to the so called "experts", its well known vaccines effectiveness is waning after a couple of months, they were never 100%

Can you put a number on its effectiveness to reduce the chances of infection & spreading?

Friends wife just got her booster, she has been floored for a few days with it and everyone else in house is fine

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361025#Comment_118361025

when they break it down, we'll take it more seriously

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361051#Comment_118361051

The salient point is most people with severe covid symptoms are unvaccinated.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361169#Comment_118361169

It may be true but that alone does not make it the most salient.

And it certainly does not contradict the fact that each symptomatic infection in the fully vaccinated is a failure of the protection the vaccine was intended to provide.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361204#Comment_118361204

Thanks for proving that you are absolutely clueless about vaccines and how they work.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361300#Comment_118361300

And that comment does not contradict my point either. Happy to debate the point if you wish, who knows, one of us might learn something and end up a little less clueless.

Retr0gamer · 22-12-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361339#Comment_118361339

Because each symptomatic infection in the fully vaccinated person isn't a failure of the vaccine as you state. There's a very high probability that the symptoms would have been more severe if the person was unvaccinated.

That's the facts backed up my numerous research studies. Refusing to believe doesn't make it any less true.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361392#Comment_118361392

Yes it is true that if you are vaccinated and you catch symptomatic covid then the symptoms are likely to be less severe. I am not refusing to believe that, the data is overwhelming.

But in that case the vaccine is acting more like an anti viral drug - i.e it lessens the severity of the disease - and less like a vaccine - i.e it did not protect you from developing, and transmitting, the disease it was intended to stop you developing.

I am not claiming that I expect zero breakthrough infections, that's totally unrealistic. But I am saying that each breakthrough infection is a failure of intended outcome of vaccination. As I said earlier, that is exactly why they are called breakthrough infections.

And with the covid vaccines there are a huge amount of breakthrough infections, thus transmissions, thus rising case numbers and thus severe outcomes, and thus inability to get back to normal without threat of restrictions etc.

This is not what was expected 12 months ago, the vaccines are not doing as good a job as expected/hoped for - there are considerably more breakthrough infections than anticipated.

Refusing to believe/accept that doesn't make it any less true.

Retr0gamer · 22-12-2021 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361464#Comment_118361464

What the lay person doesn't understand is that science isn't black and white. It's all controlled on statistics. Chemical reactions never go to 100% completion and vaccines will never be 100% effective. No vaccine is 100% effective and effectiveness will depend on a number of factors such as the vaccine and the disease. It's all about getting as high percentage of effectiveness as possible and it's quite difficult with a disease that is as contagious as Covid-19. That's also exasperated by unvaccinated people who bring down the effectiveness of the vaccine by being high risk vectors of the vaccine. The vaccine also provides protection from catching it (you need a much higher viral load before you catch the virus compared to an unvaccinated person) and also are less likely to spread the virus due to the protection of the vaccine. It all adds up.

If you were expecting the vaccine to be a silver bullet to covid then you were looking for the impossible. It actualyl could be in an ideal world but we don't live in an ideal world. Of course with a very high roll out of vaccination we could effectively eliminate the virus if the R value could be reduced permanently to lower than 1 but that isn't happening with the amount of anti-vaxxers and the lack of vaccination for less well off countries leading to mutations. This is exasperated by how contagious Covid is.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361517#Comment_118361517

Chemical reactions never go to 100% completion and vaccines will never be 100% effective.

I specifically said I wasn't expecting 100%. That is totally unrealistic.

No vaccine is 100% effective and effectiveness will depend on a number of factors such as the vaccine and the disease.

Totally agree, and in this case this vaccine is not doing as good a job as hoped for in preventing infections of this disease. That's my entire point.

What the lay person doesn't understand is that science isn't black and white. It's all controlled on statistics.

And the statistics are showing very high levels of vaccination failure.

It's not only the lay person that has noticed it. Our own Chief Medical Officer has commented on it:

He said: “Unfortunately, in crude terms, the vaccinations have probably done a little better than we might have hoped in terms of preventing severe infection.

“They have performed and held up their performance really well in protecting people from the severe effects of the disease.

“In truth they are probably not performing as well as we might have hoped in terms of preventing transmission.

“There is an impact on transmission by and to people who are vaccinated, but it’s not as great as we might like.

"It is possible for people who are infected, and who were vaccinated, to be infected and to transmit that infection."

Shilock · 22-12-2021 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361036#Comment_118361036

You just cannot help yourself trying to derail the thread, what is it with you and a few others talking about other posters.

Are you here for the discussion about the original post or just the posters ?

Retr0gamer · 22-12-2021 4:33pm

It's still preventing transmission and infection. Things would be way worse without them.

Fighting Tao · 22-12-2021 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361605#Comment_118361605

If you have a problem with my posts then report them. Let’s call a spade a spade, and the fact that multiple new posters have derailed the conversation pretending to be one thing, but then exposing their true colours very shortly after is one hell of a coincidence.

King Mob · 22-12-2021 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361123#Comment_118361123

Why are you asking when you've dodged and lied about every single fact you've claimed.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that 30000 people have died due to the vaccine.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why you lied about the adverse effects reports.

You are very selective about what you respond to and how.

King Mob · 22-12-2021 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361590#Comment_118361590

By how much does the vaccines reduce transmission?

22-12-2021 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361464#Comment_118361464

Let's look at what the Vaccines (including boosters) actually do do in the current situation ->

+ prevent severe illness and death (particularly important in the case of at-risk people)

+ reduce the chances of developing Long Covid (which is looking like a chronic illness for some people)

+ reduces your chance of developing symptomatic Covid

+ reduces the chance of becoming infected

+ reduces the time that a person is infectious in the first place so reduces spread.

The vaccines and boosters reduce the severity of restrictions required as the effects above reduce the impacts on the health care systems.

Even a small child would know that restrictions would be way worse than what they are without vaccines (and boosters etc).

There are no readily available (right now) effective anti-viral drugs right now so vaccinations remain the best protection until then. Even then vaccines will play an important role. It's unknown how long drugs like Pavloxid will remain effective for "in the wild".

And with the covid vaccines there are a huge amount of breakthrough infections, thus transmissions, thus rising case numbers and thus severe outcomes, and thus inability to get back to normal without threat of restrictions etc.

This is not what was expected 12 months ago, the vaccines are not doing as good a job as expected/hoped for - there are considerably more breakthrough infections than anticipated.

Like who exactly can and did predict how a novel virus will evolve exactly and how the pandemic will play out?

This point is mere semantics at this juncture.

It's the actual reality that counts and Vaccines are still providing HUGE benefits.

RoboRat · 22-12-2021 5:57pm

The definition of a vaccine is as follows: a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

A vaccine doesn't guarantee that you won't stop transmission of the virus. This is because viruses mutate and a vaccine can only be developed with an existing strain of the virus. When the virus mutates, it tends to keep a lot of the initial characteristics, hence why a vaccine can still be effective in combating serious illness. The mutation generally makes the virus more transmissible as the sole purpose of a virus is to reproduce.

The polio vaccine for instance doesn't stop transmission, IPV prevents infection but not transmissibility. Yet, the Polio vaccine is regarded as a huge success in combating Polio. Whilst the vaccine doesn't stop the spread, it gives your body the tools to fight it and therefore you reduce the chance of serious disease and you recover quicker, therefore reducing the time the virus is in your body, and in turn reducing the likelihood of passing it on.

I think a lot of people don't quite understand the purpose of a vaccine.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361974#Comment_118361974

Can you share the source of the information that the polio vaccine doesn’t stop transmission?

id certainly agree with you that a lot of people don’t quite understand the purpose of a vaccine.

RoboRat · 22-12-2021 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362020#Comment_118362020

https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/disease-prevention/pages/news/news/2016/04/poliomyelitis-polio-and-the-vaccines-used-to-eradicate-it-questions-and-answers#:~:text=IPV%20produces%20antibodies%20in%20the,stop%20transmission%20of%20the%20virus.

22-12-2021 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361605#Comment_118361605

I suggest Ignore. They'll keep replying, but at least it will be faded out.

22-12-2021 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362089#Comment_118362089

RoboRat, how do you ever see this ending? There is an obsessions with case numbers and transmission. Even when it's endemic, if it isn't already in some countries, there will be cases and transmission. So how does it end? The media will never stop reporting on cases every day.

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361169#Comment_118361169

This information is open to interpretation as "unvaccinated" can be someone who has taken 1 or 2 shots but hasnt passed the 14 day timeline

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361392#Comment_118361392

"There's a very high probability that the symptoms would have been more severe if the person was unvaccinated."

This is still not confirmed

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 6:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361517#Comment_118361517

it has been confirmed that a fully vaccinated person contains at least the same viral load in the nasal area as an unvaccinated perosn

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361517#Comment_118361517

"That's also exasperated by unvaccinated people who bring down the effectiveness of the vaccine by being high risk vectors of the vaccine"

can you elaborate more on this statement?

How does an unvaccinated person bring down the effectiveness of a vaccine?

What about natural immunity?

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361606#Comment_118361606

its actually not

hometruths · 22-12-2021 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362089#Comment_118362089

So a specific type of polio vaccine IPV prevents infection but not transmission. But presumably people who are not infected are not transmitting much.

And the other one OPV, a person becomes immune for life and can no longer transmit the virus to others if exposed again.

Sounds like a petty good vaccine and it’s no wonder that the polio vaccine is regarded a huge success as you say.

and it’s a good example of the fact that not all vaccines are created equally.

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361663#Comment_118361663

pot - kettle

Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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