Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

22-12-2021 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362192#Comment_118362192

but it has also been confirmed that a vaccinated person will not have the same infectious viral load for as long as the unvaccinated person so the unvaccinated spread Covid more as the vaccine accelerates viral clearance

so the vaccines (most especially the mRNA vaccines) do indeed reduce infection and transmission

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 7:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361678#Comment_118361678

and here we go, you ask the same question that I had just asked you in a previous post to detract from you being asked that question

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362297#Comment_118362297

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RoboRat · 22-12-2021 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362129#Comment_118362129

I agree regarding the media and being honest, they exacerbate the situation but that's what the media do... its sells. A recent example - this week they were reporting that a third jab will protect against developing serious illness from omicron then minutes later saying there isn't enough data as to whether omicron will result in serious illness.

How do I see it ending... we live with it or the virus mutates into a strain that doesn't have the same danger of serious illness. I think the covid jab may end up being akin to the flu jab. Omicron may end up being that lesser strain, who knows. I feel therapeutics are close, that will make a huge difference but at present, the only thing we have is the vaccine.

One thing I do feel is that lockdowns can't continue, even if they try, the appetite is gone. Personally, they make no odds to me, nothing has really changed. The hse need to get their arse in gear and work towards living with it.

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 7:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361685#Comment_118361685

"+ prevent severe illness and death (particularly important in the case of at-risk people)"

yet to be proven, most people I know who have got sick have been after they have taken shots. Trust me my circle of friends is far more of unvaccinated than vaccinated and I know more people sick from covid that are vaccinated than the unvaccinated. Most unvaccinated people look after themselves and dont get tested. Only ones I know that got tested was to get the 6 month cert to do a bit of travel without the pcr

"+ reduce the chances of developing Long Covid (which is looking like a chronic illness for some people)"

Long covid is a myth

"+ reduces your chance of developing symptomatic Covid"

again most people I know who have been sick are vaxxed

"+ reduces the chance of becoming infected"

again most people I know who have been sick are vaxxed

"+ reduces the time that a person is infectious in the first place so reduces spread."

still not proven and normally when someone is infectious they are too sick to go out and shouldnt be spreading. Generally the vaxxed when they get a sniffle go for a test and isolate for the 2 weeks

"There are no readily available (right now) effective anti-viral drugs right now"

Again untrue, many treatments were banned from being used at the start of covid that had been used for decades. There are also studies done on these drugs showing their effectiveness against Covid

The only way you can get emergency use authorisation for a vaccine is if they declare there are no effective treatments

Handy for them

richierichwithouttherich · 22-12-2021 7:14pm

The truth is none of us know how safe these vaccines are untill several years down the road.

Is there several incidents of people having life changing reactions to vaccines?.. Yes.

Have the Vaccines saved lives?.. Yes.

Only time will tell.

Lex Luthor · 22-12-2021 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362291#Comment_118362291

unvaccinated people generally arent mxing with vaccinated people and if they are they are generally healthy people and dont go out if they are sick

Vaccinated people generally feel they are invincible with the shots and tend to go out all the time, as an example my aunt went to a wedding recently feeling slightly symptomatic but because she felt she was double jabbed she was invincible and couldnt spread anything

Turned out afterwards she infected everyone at her table and a few more

22-12-2021 7:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362321#Comment_118362321

"long covid is a myth"

"most people I know" , "most people I know" x 2

"many treatments were banned from being used at the start of covid that had been used for decades" - doesn't name treatments.

sorry but you are not even worth consideration basing your speculation off categorical statements with no back-up except some supposed anecdotal rubbish.

if you were a barrister and I was up in court I wouldn't hesitate to hire you for the prosecution out of my own pocket!

Dohnjoe · 22-12-2021 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359582#Comment_118359582

There are the straight up lunatic anti-vaxxers, but behind them we have the "I'm just concerned about vaccines" types who water down the disinformation, but still parrot it. When you are claiming they are "pretty rubbish" and "at worst dangerous", you fall right into that latter category.

RoboRat · 22-12-2021 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362257#Comment_118362257

And the one that is used in polio free countries is the IPV... you should have read on to this part...

'An increasing number of polio-free countries use IPV as the vaccine of choice.'

OPV is generally used for dealing with outbreaks and is being phased out.

Finally for context... Before the introduction of polio vaccine in 1957 polio used to be common in Ireland. By the mid-1960s few cases were reported. The OPV was only invented in 1961 so the vaccine that really got polio out of ireland was the IPV.

PintOfView · 22-12-2021 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361081#Comment_118361081

"Like I said already, the data showing the cases between vaccinated and unvaccinated needs to be broken down further before it can be considered worth debating, as like I mentioned a person isnt classified as fully vaccinated until after 14 days of getting the shot. This could mean that the majority of people in hospital could have had their 2nd dose and within that 14 day window"

There are a couple of things wrong with that statement:

If a person is less than two weeks after their second jab then they are not fully protected, so it's a fair categorisation, is it not?
Secondly, how likely is it, do you think, that a large portion of the unvaccinated in hospital will, by co-incidence, have just gotten the jab in the previous 14 days? Isn't it more likely they share the same mind set as yourself, and are not vaccinated at all?

And the original Pfizer vaccine trial data (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7745181/) shows clearly that during the two weeks post vaccination you are not fully protected. So it would seem the categorisation of unvaccinated / vaccinated is a totally valid one in the circumstances, and tells us what we need to know!

sydthebeat · 22-12-2021 7:50pm

Lexy continuing to show that he's an absolute spoofer.

PintOfView · 22-12-2021 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362353#Comment_118362353

"unvaccinated people generally arent mxing with vaccinated people and if they are they are generally healthy people and dont go out if they are sick"

This sounds like a bit of a ludicrous generalisation. How do you know what everyone else does, and how do people know if someone else is vaccinated or not? And what's with the claim of unvaccinated being generally healthy people and don't go out if they're sick???

You might need to tighten up on your thought processes, because if you bring this quality of reasoning to everything else you're not going to be drawing a lot of valid conclusions!!!

hometruths · 22-12-2021 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362443#Comment_118362443

Finally for context... Before the introduction of polio vaccine in 1957 polio used to be common in Ireland. By the mid-1960s few cases were reported. The OPV was only invented in 1961 so the vaccine that really got polio out of ireland was the IPV.

Great, a very effective vaccine so. If it did not reduce transmission it must have been brilliant at preventing infection in order to scrub out polio in Ireland.

And if we had something as effective to fight covid there would be no argument from me that the risk/benefit analysis would be very much in favour of taking the vaccine.

Sadly we don't.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362763#Comment_118362763

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hometruths · 22-12-2021 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362836#Comment_118362836

Kind of an ironic picture for another of your insightful contributions to the debate.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362887#Comment_118362887

It's the only replies your posts deserve.

generic_throwaway · 22-12-2021 9:44pm

I love how anti-vaxxers bleat about the dangers of the vaccine, but does anyone know anybody who has died from taking one of the vaccines? Out of ~4 million or so people who have taken them multiple times?

So I guess, in the absence of any actual deaths, you need to point your fear machine towards the future, and talk about 'unknown side-effects' at some unspecified point (which, by necessity of the facts, must now be at least a year away from vaccination). Which obviously ignores the fact that there isn't a trace of vaccine in your body within a week or two of receiving it.

But when did facts matter to an anti-vaxxer?

PintOfView · 22-12-2021 10:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362763#Comment_118362763

"And if we had something as effective to fight covid there would be no argument from me that the risk/benefit analysis would be very much in favour of taking the vaccine."

If you look at the Safety of COVID-19 vaccines page on the EMA web site you can look at the safety information on 4 different vaccines up to early Dec 2021.

From that page it would seem that the total suspected fatal side effects from all 4 vaccines comes to about 8,000, but these are not all confirmed as being due to the vaccine. This is for a total of 627 million doses administered up to 1st Dec 2021. From a quick calculation the rates vary from about 12 suspected deaths to 19 deaths per million doses, depending on the vaccine. If that held for Ireland then, with about 7.5m doses administered so far, it would translate to "up to 90 to 140 people" dying from the side effects of the vaccine. Compare that to 148 dying on Irish roads in 2019.

Into that equation you then have to ask, what would happen if all the vaccinated people in Ireland got Covid itself, but without being vaccinated?

One clue is that in April 2020 we had 1,000 more deaths than normal for April (3,500 vs 2,500 avg for prev 5 years), and last Jan/Feb 2021 we something between 1,300 to 1,500 excess deaths for Jan/Feb combined. This is with lockdowns etc, so presumably these deaths were from only a percentage of the population catching Covid. So already, without the majority of the population catching Covid, you have about 2,500 clear Covid related deaths vs an expected high of 140 deaths from the vaccine itself. That's a pretty clear benefit if the vaccine was to save 90% of those deaths, and the benefit would be expected to increase dramatically if a large majority of the population got Covid!

Re vaccines in general, I'm not an expert but it seems to me that a primary benefit of any vaccine is in reducing the 'R' number, and not necessarily making you immune to the disease (your body simply has a head start when it catches the disease and eliminates it more quickly from your system, and so saves you, and reduces transmission). If the vaccine keeps the R number below 1 then the disease fizzle out because each person who catches it doesn't infect enough new people to keep it going. That's the benefit to the community, and a secondary benefit is to the individual, who shouldn't get as sick with the disease.

Detritus70 · 22-12-2021 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362321#Comment_118362321

Not a single fact in this flood of bullsh*t

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363601#Comment_118363601

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richierichwithouttherich · 22-12-2021 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363620#Comment_118363620

Your taking glee in people's death?

Why arent you posting memes about smokers putting strain on health service?

Or overweight people?

Alcoholics?

Why is it just the unvaccinated You have a problem with?

King Mob · 22-12-2021 11:27pm

So again it's looking like conspiracy theorists have given uo trying to claim the vaccines are dangerous and are now trying to deflect to nitpick about the vaccines effectiveness.

And still they have to lie to do so.

hometruths · 22-12-2021 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363472#Comment_118363472

Into that equation you then have to ask, what would happen if all the vaccinated people in Ireland got Covid itself, but without being vaccinated?

A high estimate of 140 vaccine deaths is actually higher than I would have expected. According to the Economist total excess deaths for period Mar 1st 2020-Oct 31st 2021 was 2780 which is actually lower than I would have expected.

I think it is very difficult to extrapolate what would happen if all the vaccinated people in Ireland got COVID without being vaccinated because it effects people in such different ways. i.e you cant compare the likely potential outcome of a healthy 35 year old with an unhealthy 75 year old. All we know for sure is that the vast majority of people who catch covid, whether vaxxed or not, do not die.

I've been consistent that my gripe about the vaccine is the rush for mass vaccination. It should be an individual risk reward decision. If you're 75 with underlying health issues and decide not to get the vaccine, I think you're a total moron. If you're a parent of a 5 year old and decide to get them vaccinated I also think you're a total moron.

Re vaccines in general, I'm not an expert but it seems to me that a primary benefit of any vaccine is in reducing the 'R' number, and not necessarily making you immune to the disease.

This is my other gripe about the vaccine. The lowering of the bar of what we should expect from a vaccine. The primary intention of vaccination is immunisation. This in turn achieves a host of other benefits including reducing the R number.

The vaccines are providing undoubted benefits in reducing the severity of outcomes but I don't understand the reluctance to accept they are not doing much in the way of immunisation.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2021 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363671#Comment_118363671

Sorry, I don't engage with re-regs.

PintOfView · 23-12-2021 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363728#Comment_118363728

"I think it is very difficult to extrapolate what would happen if all the vaccinated people in Ireland got COVID without being vaccinated because it effects people in such different ways. i.e you cant compare the likely potential outcome of a healthy 35 year old with an unhealthy 75 year old. All we know for sure is that the vast majority of people who catch covid, whether vaxxed or not, do not die."

Sure, the bad effects of Covid are clearly age dependant, and yes, the vast majority of people who catch Covid won't die. However, some will die, as we've seen, and, depending on the numbers catching it, our hospital system can get hammered with consequent worse outcomes for non-Covid patients.

"I've been consistent that my gripe about the vaccine is the rush for mass vaccination. It should be an individual risk reward decision. If you're 75 with underlying health issues and decide not to get the vaccine, I think you're a total moron. If you're a parent of a 5 year old and decide to get them vaccinated I also think you're a total moron."

What is the issue with mass vaccination if the vaccines are relatively safe, and stand to save many people, and save the hospital system from being overrun, and allow the economy to get back to normal more quickly? Do you think any of those would happen if we encouraged everyone to discuss this among themselves and make up their own minds? (and you don't have to go further than this thread to see examples of completely false misinformation being bandied about).

"This is my other gripe about the vaccine. The lowering of the bar of what we should expect from a vaccine. The primary intention of vaccination is immunisation. This in turn achieves a host of other benefits including reducing the R number."

It depends on what you expect from a vaccine, and why you expect that. If you look on this review of the effectiveness of MMR vaccines they say the following:

Measles: one dose of vaccine was 95% effective in preventing measles. Two doses 96%
Mumps: one dose of vaccine was 72% effective in preventing mumps. This rose to 86% after two doses.
The results for rubella and chickenpox also showed that that vaccines are effective. After one dose of vaccine was 89% effective in preventing rubella, and one study found that after 10 years the MMRV vaccine was 95% effective at preventing chickenpox infection. If exposed to chickenpox, 5 out of 100 vaccinated children would catch it.

"The vaccines are providing undoubted benefits in reducing the severity of outcomes but I don't understand the reluctance to accept they are not doing much in the way of immunisation."

See my response to your previous point. Immunisation seems to not necessarily mean you're immune, just that 86 - 96% of vaccinated (in MMR's case) won't get symptomatic disease before their bodies expel the invaders!

buzzerxx · 23-12-2021 12:22am

Testing yourself constantly for disease when you have no symptoms is a form of mental illness caused mostly by the brainwashing, Lying, Apathetic MSM and the low life, sellout, nefarious Shills.

hometruths · 23-12-2021 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363904#Comment_118363904

The goal of immunization is to provide immunity - sure not everybody will successfully become immune hence the term breakthrough infections.

my point is these vaccines seems to leakier than most. That’s ok, because they were developed at warp speed. What’s not ok is to pretend that they are doing a great job at providing immunity.

and that is my concern re the claims that the vaccines are relatively safe.

if the goalposts shifted on the reward side of the equation and there is a reluctance to recognize that quickly, how can we have confidence that the goalposts might not shift on the risk side of the equation?

Dohnjoe · 23-12-2021 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363975#Comment_118363975

Covid has an incubation period of several days, meaning you can have the virus (and be spreading it) for several days without knowing it. Asymptomatic people can spread it. This is why people test themselves.

hometruths · 23-12-2021 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363904#Comment_118363904

What is the issue with mass vaccination if the vaccines are relatively safe, and stand to save many people, and save the hospital system from being overrun, and allow the economy to get back to normal more quickly? Do you think any of those would happen if we encouraged everyone to discuss this among themselves and make up their own minds?

With a 94% take up of adults vaccinated there is no need to coerce the remaining 6% and to push the vaccines on children. And that’s assuming they’re relatively safe. Long term nobody knows.

Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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