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Why do British people know so little of their colonial past when it's all available on Google?

24

Comments

  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Germans know all about WW2, and everything that Germany did. Schoolchildren in Germany have to visit concentration camps. They are taught their history from a very young age, so they know exactly how wrong it was.

    They were not hiding anything from history, noone wants Hitler's homes to become shrines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,266 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    Not sure i agree there bubbly it's not something they like talking about in my experience anyway but maybe that's just my experience, i accept the kids part though i didn't know that so thanks for educating me there that's a good thing they are doing that as difficult as it must be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,373 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Prussia was one of many principalities and statelets that formed the Germany of the time…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    Why do rabid anti British IRA heads start threads on colonialism and fail to mention that all countries that could colonise others did.


    Get over yourselves.

    We've moved on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    The Prussian empire in Blue at the height of its power up to 1918 before it formed into modern day Germany after WW1.

    I’m not sure what your point is tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,537 ✭✭✭touts


    Dyson are advertising a hairdryer in "Prussian Blue"

    Next year they will probably have a hoover in "East India Company Red"


    People don't teach their children about the shameful aspects of history. Then in a couple of generations we repeat history. It's not just the Brits. Look at the popularity of Sinn Fein and the Far left Trotskyist parties among young Irish people. Most of them have no concept of what went on in the troubles and think Sinn Fein stand for free houses for all and that was just 30 years ago. As to the mass genocides Trotsky engineered during the Russian Revolution and Civil War they all think Trotsky was some sort of nice fluffy economist dude.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭judestynes


    For the same reason Irish people are unaware of atrocities perpetrated by Irish settlers on indigenous peoples in the U.S, Canada and Australia. Look up the New York draft riots then come back and tell me our hands are clean. We don't know because we don't want to know and leave at that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,274 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    The Government elected by the English is ultimately responsible for what goes on in NI. Two sides were going at each other for several decades under their watch. If that were the case for me, I'd want to know what is going on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Eh yes, they are literally the elected representatives of that country.

    Someone asked what relevance their general ignorance of their history has, and I gave an example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    I never realised that the New York draft riots were perpetuated by Ireland. Learn something new everyday.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Because people are in no mood to get lectured to by those ilk whose purpose is not to learn the past for its own sake but to use it as a bully pulpit for current day politics.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Unlike the Japanese the Germans make sure they know their history. Japan hasn't moved far enough from Hirohito's speach with all it's double talk "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage"

    Below are two programs I've recorded but haven't watched yet as they won't be entertaining.


    The Lessons of Nuremberg

    DW English HD / Mon 08.11., 18:15

    44:59 min. / 1.78 GB

    Images of the Unthinkable

    On November 20, 1945, the Nuremberg trials against prominent members of Nazi Germany began. Twenty-four major war criminals and seven organizations stood trial for crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes. Following the main trial, a series of twelve additional military tribunals for war crimes were held against Nazi elites such a politicians, diplomats, doctors and businessmen. There have been a number of films about Nuremberg, but this documentary takes a novel approach. It explores the trial process from a personal angle via the fascinating story of Budd and Stuart Schulberg. The two brothers were assigned by the OSS to gather film evidence of the Nazis' crimes. They travelled to war-devastated Europe in 1945, and spent four months hunting for pictures and movie footage. They amassed hundreds of hours of archival footage, much of it recorded by the Nazis themselves and stored in secret locations. Well-known figures from the film industry such as director John Ford worked with the Schulberg brothers to edit the footage. The result was several films, which were shown in the courtroom during the Nuremberg trial, the most important being "Nazi Concentration Camps" and "The Nazi Plan." Their films would have a lasting impact on the collective perception of Nazi crimes. But there was another film made during the trial. One which is far less well-known. United States Chief of Council Robert Jackson commissioned Stuart Schulberg, the younger of the two brothers, to film the actual trial. The plan had been to release the documentary in American movie theaters in 1948 under the title "Nuremberg: Its Lesson for Today". However, it was withdrawn in the post-war United States, when reconciliation with Germany took precedence, and when there was a new public enemy, the Soviet Union. For almost 60 years, the film of the trial lay forgotten. Then, in 2003, Stuart's daughter Sandra Schulberg took up her father's work. She successfully gathered, sorted and restored the film reels. This documentary sheds light on previously unknown aspects of this historical turning point.


    I have no illusions on how this will reflect on treatment of the locals.

    War and Disease: 3016-109

    NHK WORLD-JPN / Sat 11.12., 01:10

    49:58 min. / 3.15 GB

    During the Pacific War, Japan's Southern Army Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Department fought diseases like malaria - new documents reveal the harsh reality and victims of those efforts.

    During the Pacific War, Japan's Southern Army Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Department fought diseases like malaria - new documents reveal the harsh reality and victims of those efforts.




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's not the English civil war though. Didn't even happen in England.

    Don't know why if people are not interested in history, you expect them to be interested in some other place their government is responsible for.

    It's just not on their radar.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭judestynes


    Add it to the list of things you never knew. I never said Ireland, I said Irish settlers or emigrants



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    I'm just pointing out it's a false equivalence to make. The actions by Irish people in those riots weren't done with the backing, or approval, of the Irish state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,274 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    And yet England was also targetted by attacks as part of the Troubles and they all know who the IRA are.

    It is entirely distant to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭judestynes


    There was no Irish state in the 19th century but when the state was established, the state and it's citizens had no objections to an institution perpetrating horrible abuses upon women, children and the disabled. Do you believe that had Ireland been a colonial power at that time that we would have been any different to Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Turkey?



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    And the OP asked about British people.

    It’s not an example, it’s just lazy!

    Attributing a few Tory MPs statements as an impression of the whole population is a juvenile argument at best and plain stupid at worst!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Have I made any inference to say we would have acted any different as a colonizing power? And where have I made any apology for the state's role in the abuse of its citizens?



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Prussian Blue is a chemical with many uses including as a dark blue colouring for uniforms. In the UK they use the word khaki to describe another colour used for uniforms. But Prussian blue is a much nicer colour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Yeah these are British people. Elected by the British people to represent them, and products of the British education system.

    Were the British history curriculum more expansive they wouldn’t have made those comments. And that’s what we’re talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭judestynes


    This isn't about what you said or even think. The question was why don't the English learn about their colonial past or words to that effect and the answer is because times, attitudes , beliefs and people were different then and when you spend too much time looking into the dark past you won't like what you'll find. In any research I ever carried out on Britain's imperial past discovering Irish participation in that is unavoidable. The OP's question was virtue signaling in the first place, The British empire was so bad so by inference Ireland and by extension of that the Irish people were so good, no we weren't. An earlier commentator asked of the OP how much of Irish history do they know beyond a certain point and that's a very valid question. We ought not to expect anyone to apologize for the blood on their hands until we have cleaned ours first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,476 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    all you need to know about irish history

    The Lebor Gabála tells of Ireland being settled (or "taken") six times by six groups of people: the people of Cessair, the people of Partholón, the people of Nemed, the Fir Bolg, the Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Milesians. The first four groups are wiped out or forced to abandon the island; the fifth group represent Ireland's pagan gods,[1] while the final group represent the Irish people (the Gaels).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,432 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The problem with the English is that they don't remember, and the problem with the Irish is that they don't forget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Whatever you say! On that basis I can hold you to account for all the ridiculous BS that comes out of every TD’s mouth then. Good to know!

    7 posts and 50% have been BS. I guess the theory works!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Ah, you're coming out with the term virtue signalling now so debate's probably pointless. Has anyone come on here and said that Ireland is free of sin and Britain is the evil empire? Let's be real here though, they did some incredibly shady shít in pursuit of the empire. Brexit, probably the biggest foot shooting committed by a wealthy country in the recent past, is a manifestation of the esteem that they hold themselves in and their belief that they are above their European counterparts.

    Also, trying to say that we would have been just as bad is like saying to an assault victim that if they were the ones committing the assault, they would have hit the assailant just as hard so it's a fair cop. It is also entirely possible to point out the wrongs a former empire committed on a colonised country and to point out the failings of a country like ours in its post colonial era.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    So what is your point exactly? That Britons at large do actually have a good grasp of their national history??

    And ha. I’ve been a boards user for 10+ years - took a break after the great reset and now I'm back. You clearly have nothing to actually say for yourself so it’s no big surprise you’re bringing up stupid shite like post count.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    since living here this must be one of the biggest myths I have come across, there seems to be a perception that we (English) know little of our history.

    I studied it up to A level, it was a few years ago but a basic outline was

    Primary school level - vikings, Romans, Tudors, that’s the basic level.

    GCSE - World wars and the aftermath, 100 years war, Anglo saxons, Magna Carta, Victorian times etc

    A level - Empire, industrial revolution, French Revolution, world wars, Cold War, America, etc.

    Obviously there are cross overs and I think tudors for example is taught at every level, ‘glorious times’ for the country so it is covered as you would expect.

    I think a lot of frustration here is that the history of Britain and Ireland is barely touched upon (I get it), I’m not saying it’s right but it is seen as a small part of British history, I do think it should be more in depth but that’s where it’s at.

    There are plenty of people back home who do think Ireland / Northern Ireland is the same, generally I don’t think there is much malice, some people are just stupid, or worse ignorant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Germany was United in 1871 if I’m not mistaken



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  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    My point is that what you’re saying is idiotic! You think that a few Tory MPs speak for 70 million people’s historical knowledge!

    I can just imagine why you ‘took a break’ judging by the rubbish you’ve posted with your ‘new account’ rather than just using your old account!!

    And as for nothing to say, maybe it’s best you say nothing if all you’ve got is Tory MP’s so therefore everyone!

    🤦‍♂️



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Prussia, and it’s empire remained until 1918

    In 1871, Germany unified into a single country, minus Austria and Switzerland, with Prussia the dominant power. Prussia is considered the legal predecessor of the unified German Reich (1871–1945) and as such a direct ancestor of today's Federal Republic of Germany.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    I’m giving it as an example of where their lack of historical awareness caught them out. You think the British have a good knowledge of their history and Empire, fair enough, I’m just saying in my personal experience it’s not been the case.

    And haha I don’t give a **** about what you think of my boards account



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s also very much a political ideology and a class and region thing. Compare that Northern Ireland Secretary to Mo Mowlam, for example: a very intelligent, brave, warm, open minded English woman who was willing to listen and find solutions.

    There are very much two sides to England. The big problem is the Little England nationalists who identify with the right wing of the Tories, UKIP etc etc

    If anything, I think the brexiteers found the English Achilles Heel - there’s a % of the electorate who completely buy into a nationalistic fantasy and all the pomp that goes along with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Oh most definitely, it’s certainly not the case with every Briton, just a preponderance of them



  • Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    If we didn't know so little about English history, do you think we'd be slower to assign new meaning to the term "Little Englander"?

    "In its original meaning during the late 18th and 19th centuries, a "Little Englander" was a member of the Liberal Party who was opposed to expansion of the British Empire, as well as certain traditionalist conservatives who wanted England to extend no farther than its borders at the time. The term was also used for English people who saw the British Empire's colonies as economically burdensome and wanted them to be granted independence as quickly as possible."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    That isn’t what you said though was it!

    You’re just a typical generalist who’s too lazy to do the research so lumps everyone into whatever suits your narrative!

    Not sure why you’re here really if that’s all you’re gonna bring to the table. Pretty lame!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,600 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Or rather they focus on the bits of history that are palatable and simple to explain, those that portray them as either heroes and/or hard done by martyrs. Not the awkward, complicated bits that don't always show them in the best light.

    Irish people are every bit as guilty as British for cherry-picking a narrative, and that goes for just about every country out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Very true and SF's position in the opinion polls shows at least one third of our voters have forgotten Ireland's recent history.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    On Christmas day 800 the Pope crowned Charlemagne as Emperor.

    Because of the Napoleonic wars there was a gap from 1806 to 1815 before the Holy Roman Empire was replaced by the German Confederation where Prussia and Austria were the main rivals until Prussia succeed (only a few months after the US Civil War) and formed the North German Confederation.

    So excluding civil and religious wars, Germany has been united for most of the last 1300 years.

    Though in fairness the Russian satellite state of East Germany and moving Poland a few hundred km westwards was intended to erase any future Prussian powerbase.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Haha what research?? How can one talk of a general quality evident in a general populations without engaging in generalities? Should we interview every single person in a populace before we make assumptions about them? No of course not, because that would be unnecessary and a massive waste of time.

    You're here shiteing on about research when you’ve said done absolutely nothing to either support or refute the point made by the OP. All talk, backing up nothing.

    The president of our country has written an article in a national newspaper making a similar point. He’s just another lazy generalist clearly. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/michael-d-higgins-empire-shapes-our-past-and-present-relationship-with-britain-1.4482373

    The idea we’re discussing obviously resonates with plenty of people and their experience or it wouldn’t come up so much. So rather than squawking about what other people are saying how about you actually add something to the thread, either in support of or against the OP, with something to back it up. Or are too lazy to do your “research”?



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Wow that’s a lot of words to say absolutely nothing!! 😂

    You can’t generalise that a certain set of people don’t do or don’t have something based on a couple of people! Especially when you’re saying those few people apply to a population of 70 million.

    Well YOU can and YOU have, but it’s just laughable! 😂

    I engaged with the OP inthe only way you can when someone’s saying why do the Brits know so little about their history, when, like you, there’s no basis in fact that this is the case other than a handful of examples out of a vast population. The OP was a generalised rant than a genuine question!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin



    It's not like I provided what I claimed to be an exhaustive list or something, just gave a couple of relevant recent examples of where Britons lack of historical awareness has let them down.

    Anyway this seems like a waste of time, don't know why I bothered - I'll revert to your position and just say you're wrong (I'll follow your lead and won't provide any basis for why that is).



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Freddie Mcinerney


    Because they are coconuts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Hahaha! More distancing from what you said! Love it, the arguments of a self made Straw man!

    Your best post yet! Best end there, you’re not gonna top that! 😂😂😂



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  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The term has expanded though to those who are simply English nationalists in the modern sense. Brexit above all else. Little thought or concern for the U.K. beyond England and maybe even beyond their bit of England etc etc

    They’re the people who when surveyed would put Brexit ahead of the UK remaining integrated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Apart from the Germans how many nations with dark histories really actually delve deep into those realities. There are dark sides of our own histories where church and state has intersected, is that really going to be prominent in our modern history curriculums going forward?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Where would a discussion like this lead if the OP got his wish? “The British” should know about their Colonial past … so they should feel some collective guilt about it … then pay some form of reparations? Like the Irish experience can be compared to Native Americans, or black slaves in the USA? Always looking for validation as perennial victims?

    Does individual ancestry matter? From what I’ve learned of my own Scottish background, I know that, after Culloden, some of my ancestors were imprisoned and/or sent in to bondage in the West Indies. Another ancestor may have been a slave trader in Jamaica, while members of one related clan may have been among the murderers at the Massacre of Glencoe. I spent most of my childhood in Apartheid South Africa, where I benefited from a good education in English, and enjoyed other advantages left behind by the British Empire.

    How much post-Colonial guilt should I feel? Right now I feel none at all.

    Ye Hypocrites, are these your pranks
    To murder men and gie God thanks?
    Desist for shame, proceed no further
    God won't accept your thanks for murder.

    ―Robert Burns



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well you definitely benefitted from apartheid right? I do agree though that the elites of any imperial country were the largest beneficiaries, but rarely blamed.



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