Russia - threadbanned users in OP

22-12-2021 3:33pm

To be fair I'd trust the Americans, Russians and Chinese fairly equally.

Markcheese · 22-12-2021 5:44pm

Russia isn't "scared' of NATO expansion , theyre pissed at it limiting their ability to push their neighbours about ... , If NATO ( or an eu member ) had wanted they'd have taken Kaliningrad in the 90s ... It probably wouldn't have been difficult.

And I don't think that NATO had much to do with the Ukrainian military before the Russians invaded - I think what their rattled about now is the Ukrainian army and it's abilities are improving , not to an invade Russia level but to a "it won't be a walk over " level... Short sharp wars with obvious gains are great for home moral - expensive and undisguisable loses ,not so much ... Plus Putin wants to see how far he can ratchet up the pressure before something breaks - and that's the start point the next time ...

TefalBrain · 22-12-2021 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359837#Comment_118359837

I think they are done with the west's promises after the cold war. This is not going to be solved with ink but with blood.

TefalBrain · 22-12-2021 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361269#Comment_118361269

"Peace at all costs", how'd that work out in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Manic Moran · 22-12-2021 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361925#Comment_118361925

Not as a NATO program, no. The US military does do some joint training with them under the State Partnership Program. Currently 89 nations are in the program, Ukraine has been partnered with California's National Guard since 1993 and routine exchanges happen between the two. Similarly during the 2008 Ossetia clash, some members of the Georgia Guard were in Georgia under the same partnership program. It's mainly a mentorship/advisory program with occasional unit-level exercises.

22-12-2021 6:34pm

Fred Kaplan has a productive take on the proposed Russian treaty:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/12/putin-russia-treaty-u-s-ukraine.html

Gatling · 22-12-2021 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362120#Comment_118362120

Basically give putin what he wants ,this time and then wait until he decides he wants more of the East European countries to himself,

Putin should have zero say about how sovereign states go about their normal business from development to defense ,

They are not Russian

Selenophile · 22-12-2021 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359350#Comment_118359350

I guess I disagree that cutting off gas supplies to European industry would present just inconvenience. Inconvenience would be something like problem with Polish apples in 2014 (or so). That is, maybe it would be inconvenience for Western Europe, if by that term you exclude Germany, which is Central European country. But I believe you assume Germany as part of the Western Europe. In that case, I believe halting its industry would be a significant blow to whole EU. As far as I know, European economy is not in such a great shape lately.

But let's say you are right and Russian counter measures would be "just inconvenience". How much inconvenience is average Western European ready to accept for Ukraine ? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm of impression that nobody in Western Europe would sacrifice much of their disposable income for Ukraine or Ukrainians... or if not for solidarity with Ukrainians, then to simply hurt Russians.

Selenophile · 22-12-2021 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361925#Comment_118361925

About Kaliningrad: no matter how much Russia was in bad shape at that time, it was still nuclear superpower and any attack on her territory was out of question. It wasn't down with its nuclear arsenal and its army, even in bad shape, it was still capable to seriously hurt even US troops. Russia was ruined economically, and with the fall of communist regime, the whole state became absolutely dysfunctional, and that's how all those tycoons were able to amass fortune in a very short time by effectively robing state owned resources.

Russia is very much scared of NATO expansion, and there is very real reason for it. Bringing their missiles at the border between Russia and Ukraine, NATO would be in position to launch missiles that would reach Moscow in 7 - 10 minutes (per Putin's latest confession). That's one reality of it. But this also means that NATO would be in position to neutralize most of Russian nuclear capability to strike back, which would give them deadly advantage for the first nuclear strike. Without MAD, Russia is done. These are the reasons why Russia is so much against further NATO expansion to their borders. Even more important, this is why Russia will suffer those terrible sanctions willingly - for Russia, this is simple existential threat. Economic cost makes no sense in such calculations.

All of this didn't start with conflict in Ukraine. USA has been trying to install its anti missile systems in Eastern Europe, as close to Russian border as possible, for years now. Maybe you remember the time, when Americans were trying to convince Russia that such missile shield was not against Russia, but to protect the West from Iran. Russian didn't buy this. Also, with Bush (I think it was Bush administration) giving some vague promise to Georgia (or at least Georgian president at that time understood it like a promise) that they will become part of NATO and protected by USA (this part was most probably just Georgian misunderstanding or daydreaming), they became bold and provoke Russian attack - lost two provinces. Americans, and nobody else in NATO, and indeed in the World came to help them. So, it started all much earlier.

BurgerFace · 23-12-2021 8:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327059#Comment_118327059

What possible logic would make you think such a thing. This isn't some childish game where a footballer runs off to another team because he doesn't like the colours of his current squad. Belarus return to Russia. WTF? HAHA.

Why would Belarus was to be ruled by Russia when the population is only about 7% Russian. If that's your logic then Lithuania would also want to return to Russia...although there is a higher percentage of ethnic Poles in Lithuania so sure the 7 % of Lithuanian Poles would sway the decision for Lithuania to become part of Poland.

Grow up and stop talking ****.

And there is no Russian threat to Ukraine. The US want Russia to invade the place. As if Putin is a retard like every dope who works in the US State Department. And the clueless imbeciles like Stoltenberg and Von Der Leyen. God knows how these morons got their jobs.

Keep swallowing the "threat du jour" that you are fed without taking a moment to think for yourself.

23-12-2021 8:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364525#Comment_118364525

And there is no German threat to the Czech lands. The UK and France want Germany to invade the place. As if Hitler is a retard like every dope who works in the UK Foreign Office.

Keep swallowing the "threat du jour" that you are fed without taking a moment to think for yourself.

***

And there is no French threat to Russia. The UK and the Austrians want France to invade the place. As if Napoleon is a retard like every dope who works in the UK Foreign Office.

Keep swallowing the "threat du jour" that you are fed without taking a moment to think for yourself.

***

And there is no Japanese threat to Manchuria. The US and UK want Japan to invade the place. As if the Emperor is a retard like every dope who works in the US State Department.

Keep swallowing the "threat du jour" that you are fed without taking a moment to think for yourself.

Keep thinking for yourself, BurgerFace, you cute hoor ya.

Yurt2 · 23-12-2021 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364525#Comment_118364525

No Russian threat to Ukraine? Did you miss the bit where they dismembered a part of the country and gave it to themselves (Crimea) and hived off an industrial heartland (Donbas and Lukhansk)?

Belarus is the most thoroughly Russified former Soviet Republic btw, both linguistically and in mentality. Much more so than Ukraine. The young (generally) don't want integration with Russia, but there would be a big chunk of the population that are in favour of it. Belarus is almost completely integrated with Russia economically, its border is completely open. The only thing they don't have is monetary integration, which honestly, they could do with as when they broke with the Russian ruble peg, and pegged it to the dollar it's been a disaster for them.

What happens after Lukashenko moves on / dies will be very interesting indeed. There will be an internal tug of war about the orientation of the country. More so than in Ukraine, many Belarusians may want the embrace of Moscow. It will be an ugly one.

Gatling · 23-12-2021 12:42pm

@BurgerFace Grow up and stop talking ****.

And there is no Russian threat to Ukraine. The US want Russia to invade the place.

Go back to bed comrade ,your not achieving here with this nonsense

Gatling · 23-12-2021 1:27pm

There is absolutely no plans by America to put any missile defence systems in or on Ukrainian territory,

It's nothing but russian propaganda to explain the excuse to invade Ukraine ,

Kermit.de.frog · 23-12-2021 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365659#Comment_118365659

The US doesn't need to put missiles in Ukraine given it's missile sites in Poland and Romania, not to mention it's Aegis destroyer fleet at the Rota naval base in Spain.

They've enormous capacity to strike Russia with ease anyway.

It's just nonsense by Putin for internal consumption.

BurgerFace · 23-12-2021 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364993#Comment_118364993

I stopped reading after your first paragraph. Crimea was part of Russia for over two hundred years until it was given away against the will of its people to Ukraine in the 1950's. Those people have wanted to return to Russia ever since and even more ardently since the breakup of the Soviet Union. They finally got their way via a referendum and voted overwhelming in favour of returning to Russia in 2014.

Did you miss that bit?

Yurt2 · 23-12-2021 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366407#Comment_118366407

You probably shouldn't have stopped reading.

Crimea was an ethnically mixed peninsula for all its history. Tartars, Ukrainians, Cossacks, Jews and Russians. It only became ethnically Russian majority after Stalin put the Tartars on trains and deported them all over the USSR. It was textbook ethnic cleansing and you're practicing revisionism ignoring the fact. Finland was part of the Russian Empire for over 100 years as well - should we disrespect Finnish sovereignty because of butthurt Russian nationalists too? Should we allow Putin hive off parts of the Baltics where there is Russian majority areas? That's not just reminiscent of Hitler practicing landgrabs in the Sudetenland to 'protect German speakers', it's the exact same playbook - and it's the law of the gun you're endorsing there.

Russia assented to Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea by Treaty after the fall of the Soviet Union. That's the long and the short of it. The global community shouldn't appease Putin trying to pull territorial do-overs and destabilize a region because he's sore about how the Cold War ended.

If you trust referenda conducted by Russian nationalists in the absence of international observers under the shadow of Russian guns and boycotted by citizens loyal to Kiev, you're naive indeed.

Dohnjoe · 23-12-2021 4:19pm

Ah yes, the "referendum" in Crimea held under occupation in just a few weeks, overseen by a bunch of "international monitors" who were flown in by Russia and miraculously most turned out to be regulars on RT, hardcore anti-Western critics, even the odd Holocaust denier, totally legit of course

Thank god for all the warnings from the Kremlin about Nazi's taking over Ukraine when the only two far-right candidates ended up getting less than 2% of the vote between them. Close shave there.

And the Russian soldiers on "holiday" in Donetsk, a really beautiful industrial spot, also coincidentally a warzone. It's really great they got to bring their high tech weaponry with them. Strange that when they died no one could film the funerals or acknowledge they died.

The Putin administration, a great bunch of lads, no threat to Ukraine's territorial integrity whatsoever.

BurgerFace · 23-12-2021 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365910#Comment_118365910

Talk of the US "striking" Russia with ease or whose capacity is better is infantile nonsense that belongs in the schoolyard. Like "who'd win in a fight, Spider-Man or The Hulk?"

The US and the West in general want to control the Eurasian landmass. That is what it has been about for centuries. There are a few obstacles to this, China and Russia to name but two. The current imbroglio about Ukraine is more fluff. The West are not going to intervene if Russia invades Ukraine because the WANT Russia to invade. They want Ukraine to be another quagmire for Russia like Afghanistan was.

Gatling · 23-12-2021 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366547#Comment_118366547

Don't forget 110% of the population voted to return to russia when previously russians only represented 56% of the population , putin said it not nothing unusual that russians voted in a russian referendum , except these newly arrived russians appeared in uniforms via train's and military transport convoys direct from Russia

BluePlanet · 23-12-2021 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366615#Comment_118366615

Sounds like a rubbish claim.

There's been several polls done by various entities since and it's been pretty consistent that the majority of those polled want Crimea to be part of Russia. Which is why the current status isn't going to change anytime soon. Unless you want to commit boots on the ground, do you have any sons you'd like to volunteer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling

BurgerFace · 23-12-2021 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366547#Comment_118366547

Are you denying that the Crimean people wanted to secede from Ukraine? Are you denying that they requested referenda to rejoin Russia on more than one occasion since 1991?

Why would they want a referendum to rejoin Russia is they had to be forced at gunpoint to vote yes? Otherwise what you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all.

We have the Crimeans practically begging to secede from a Ukrainian state and rejoin Russia.

We have a hostile government in Kiev who want to prevent this from happening.

We have Russia who facilitates this return.

We have western powers incandescent with rage that they were outsmarted in their attempts to deliver Sevastopol into the hands of their stooge puppet government in Kiev.

So now it's all pissing and moaning and name-calling. Typical crybaby shyte. Making up nonsense about invasions and rigged elections. That's all this is, sour grapes about being as clumsy as a cow on ice in their attempt to seize Sevastopol and being read like a book and completely checkmated.

Elmer Blooker · 23-12-2021 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366547#Comment_118366547

Good to see that you support the decision by Soviet dictator Khrushchev to hand Crimea to Ukraine (part of Russia since 17th century) in 1954 as legitimate.

I remind you that this was done by the stroke of a pen and not a single citizen of Russian majority Crimea was consulted.

If you support this act of democracy then good for you.

The fact that Ukraine granted autonomy to Crimea after a referendum in 1991 was a recognition of the Russian majority there.

Dohnjoe · 23-12-2021 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366972#Comment_118366972

I don't remember the Scottish referendum or any similar referendum taking place in 3 weeks, do you?

Doesn't matter what they wanted, there was only ever going to be one result regardless.

The Ukrainian people wanted rid of Putin's puppet who was bleeding the country dry (caught red-handed with a private zoo, galleon, collection of cars, all on a state salary, amazing) and to have closer ties with Europe. The Kremlin did not like that one little bit, so now Moscow no longer has the "shame" of leasing the deepest warm-water port in the Mediterranean, Russia just took it, and Crimea, and Eastern Ukraine. Brilliant move, caught NATO, etc with their pants down. And are now saber-rattling at Ukraine's border to get more concessions. No one is surprised by any of this.

BluePlanet · 23-12-2021 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118367179#Comment_118367179

What's Ukraine got to do with NATO exactly?

Gatling · 23-12-2021 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118367167#Comment_118367167

So no issues if Germany rolls into Kaliningrad and takes it back,

After all it's only russian since 1945 the German people weren't consulted about it

Elmer Blooker · 23-12-2021 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118367238#Comment_118367238

I’m not surprised that you never heard of the Potsdam Conference.

Dohnjoe · 23-12-2021 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118367198#Comment_118367198

Ukraine was slated to join NATO, but Putin's man in Kiev, Yanukovych binned the idea. However, since he decided to bleed the country's coffers dry (corruption is a national sport in Ukraine) and flee back to the motherland, Ukraine joining NATO is now back on the agenda. Moscow is not happy with this, hence the massive build up of military on the border, to force concessions. It's working too, the US has just agreed to (more) talks with Russia, slated for Jan. It's the equivalent of asking your parents for 50 quid in order to make 10 seem reasonable. Putin is not just an extraordinarily wealthy man (on a state salary his entire life, incredible really) he's also very shrewd, and this is well worn playbook stuff.

handlemaster · 23-12-2021 7:44pm

European army and european energy self sufficiency would put rhe brakes on Russia. All they would have then is china to purchase their gas and and Chinese would pull all the strings.

Larbre34 · 23-12-2021 7:51pm

Just seen some of Putin's self indulgent megalomaniacal bullshyt of today.

With respect to his NATO expansion analogy, if he hadn't actually invaded and occupied a region of a sovereign and fully independent State in 2014 - and indeed continues to operate combatants of his armed forces without identity markings on the territory of that Nation - then what he said might have had some validity.

But, he did and so it does not.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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