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Is communism as bad as people say

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    No.

    North Korea is a dynastic dictatorship and the USSR operated an oligarchical hierarchy that was detached from the people. Both of which Communism is against. The USSR never achieved actual Communism. Khrushchev, himself, said that he expected Communism to "reached" some time in the 80's. But the USSR fell apart during that decade.

    It's hard to know what the hell North Korea actually is. But it certainly isn't a "Communist" country. And there aren't many Communists that would would look at either North Korea or the USSR and say that they were their ideal model. But then again, there aren't many people who would claim to be actual Communists in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Fun fact: North Korea removied all references to communism, Marxist-Leninism or claims to being a communist country from its constitution in the late 2000s.

    It frames itself as a socialist country guided by Kim il Sung's Juche ideology.

    There you go now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    One of the many "fun facts" that can be had out of that place.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In the grand scheme of things I would say feck all of the ones responsible for all the murders, tortures were ever brought to justice

    In the grand scheme of things, none of them would matter, because people would be dealing with broader issues.

    I'd say that many of those responsible would have faced consequences to their choices. Those who committed the acts would have been rewarded by the Germans or whatever leading organisation, making them visible to the general population... and those responsible would have committed more such acts, as part of the roles they were rewarded with, leading to recognition by the population in general. It's doubtful that they were "brought to justice", but mob or social justice when the chains were released on the general population, and they could take revenge on those who committed such acts.

    Some will have escaped into Allied or Communist systems, but I doubt the majority did.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Communism was an idealistic concept that has never been realised on a national level, because the moment it's attempted, it will be affected by real world considerations like corruption, and those seeking to achieve their own personal agendas.

    North Korea, the USSR, Communist China, all started with the ideals of communism, but changed to match the expectations of the leadership..

    But the fact is that every country that has claimed to be Communist, has failed badly. Even smaller organisations have failed to make communism work properly over extended periods and invariably changed into something else.

    Actual Communism is a pipe-dream that cannot exist in the real world.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭victor8600


    I would call USSR/NK/China the prematurely communist-led societies, and would even consider them being less "communist" than the UK with its welfare state.

    My interpretation of Marx is that the capitalism should run its course until it burns itself out, i.e. there will be no more profit to be made because every production is optimized and all capital is concentrated in the hands of a few corporations. With 99% of capital owned by a few global companies and all people basically having no capital (i.e. not owning any material resources or means of production), the next step is to fully virtualize these global corporations and to distribute necessary goods essentially for free.

    We are half way to this already; the corporations are forced to invent new needs to make profit -- and to ensure that a consumer is interested in whatever new gadget that a corporation tries to sell, the consumer must be fed, watered and housed. Even if we had no welfare state, the capitalists would have to implement it themselves.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its good idea in theory (from my very verylimited inspection of it),afaik soviet union was 2nd highest growth of any econmy in the world for the 20th century....china & india become independant at roughly similar time and one has far outshone the other in improving its citizens lives.....so theres obvious values around community,solidarity etc to be gleaned from it....given the responses to covid vs the west


    but fundamentally it fails,betwen mix of corruption(inate human behaviour) and as average person likes certain securities of tenure/ownership and access to food etc........but given the way home ownership rates are falling,amount of cars on PCP and inevitbly rising food costs,curtailment of civil liberties (government here wanted to bring in law that gaurds could demand access to your mobile without a warrent)....this could lead to some v.uneasy questions and difficult introspection for those venement in the hatred of communiam



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Luis Long Sax


    Communism has gotten humanity to where it is today. It worked for tens of thousands of years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    This has to be a joke of a century.

    Actually not. Not funny even as a joke.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Luis Long Sax


    Hunting and gathering is literally a form of communism.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Not even close. Hunters were always first to be fed. Rest was trickle down economy with those at the end receiving mostly kick in the arse when the hunt was not productive enough.

    Seriously you could not have pick worse example.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tbf there is some evidence to suggest hunter gatherers and prehistoric folks gave care/attention to sick & disabled with skeleton evidence to support it



    Whether it amounts to communism is another story,but this cut throat individualism (which is holding back the world imo) is most certainly a relatively modern invention



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Luis Long Sax


    Ehh...I'm not a communist.

    I just understand the meaning of words.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Luis Long Sax


    Spot on.

    Our ancestors weren't "pull yourself up by your bootstraps".

    They cared for each other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Even if communism could work very well it likely never will as western democracies like the USA/UK etc would do everything in their power to make sure it does not succeed because if a communist state worked too well for a country, it would raise questions in Western states about communism and the rich and powerful would have everything to lose while the lower and middle classes would have everything to gain.

    Judging by the opinions of most westerners (even the ones who are dirt poor) the rich and powerful seem to have done a great job in convincing them it can't work so there is no reason to ever give it a try and unless a country makes a success of it these opinions will likely never change and the western powers can easily make sure any trial runs by foreign countries go horribly wrong and they can they say ''look it clearly doesn't work so get back to working 9-5 for a slave wage and stay struggling to afford a place to live''.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,270 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But that's a moot point because........................................................... communist does not and cannot "work very well".



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    The rich and powerful have convinced us of the failures of communism, and not the actually failures? Marxists are honestly some of naivest people I've came across, which would't be so bad, if it didn't come with a big dollop of hubris. Marxism is the ideology of the desperate and the dissatisfied. Getting rid of capitalism won't save the Marxist even though he/she hopes it will. They'll all still be the same malcontents no matter what system they live under.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    And where exactly has communism been tried out? Are you referring to the soviet Union? Communism is a very vague word.

    The Soviet Uniondidn’t have communism. Nor did it have socialism either. it had a bureaucratically planned and administered economy in which the ruling class were the elite planners, Communist Party apparachiks, industrial managers and military brass. There was not private accumulators of wealth and the dynamics differed from either a capitalist or socialist economy. The exploitation of labor was carried out for the benefit of the bureaucracy who appropriated the results of production collectively as a class.

    Wasn't communism at all and most Russians would actually tell you that life under soviet Union communism was far better than it is now, it is the people in the Eastern European countries of the former soviet Union who will tell you about how bad it was as it was part of a sort of colonial communism taking advantage of the Eastern European states.

    The Soviet Union never practiced communism as described by Marx it had it's own form of communism completely different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,270 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Oh this old chestnut.

    If only the people doing the communism would do communism right.

    For over a century we have had people doing communism but always doing it wrong.

    Why on earth can they just not do it properly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    The whole point of Marx communism is to divide all the wealth and means of production equally thus handing the power back to the people and out of the hands of the top 1 or 2 percent.

    The top 1% of Americans have about 16 times more wealth than the bottom 50% and things aren't much different in the UK and Ireland.

    While you have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few then real democracy cannot exist as the top few percent have far too much power and influence over the nation.

    It's the reason two party systems exist in most of the ''great'' democracies around the world the banks, the media, intelligence services, big corporations and the political parties (the top 1%) are almost like a society within a society and all do each other favors with the mutual interest of everyone maintaining their positions of power, they have far far more influence and power over the population.

    Without massive money, power and friends in high places you will never (except in revolutionary circumstances) be able to convince masses of people to vote a certain way, the power at the end of the day lies with the wealthy they're the ones with the power to convince the masses.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rock22


    TG4 aired a documentary , Turas i mBaol , in the last week. Madein 2010 it followed the nenets people in Siberia on a long trek to the Arctic sea.

    Noticable was the view expressed by these native peoples that they fared much better under USSR, with Brezhnev been given particular praise.

    So the USSR didn't get everything wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Nope. Communism semi worked for a while in some countries simply because of one single fact. It was propped up by soviet union and their mineral wealth while they were willing to subsidize their satellites.

    It simply can not work. It never worked and even places who tried socialism suffered from social divide where rich people existed they just did not put their wealth on display.

    Socialism was just hidden capitalism of a ruling class.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    "The whole point of Marx communism is to divide all the wealth and means of production equally thus handing the power back to the people and out of the hands of the top 1 or 2 percent."

    You operate on rather naive concept thinking that everyone is interested in owning what you call "means of production" and that they will want to use them. Well some might others would not. And that is where your equality pipe dream ends.

    With the sole exception of when "wealth" will be divided. Nobody would be missing in that queue. Some would piss off their share even before they would get their hands on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    There would be no currency under communism, everyone would take what they need as the means of production would be owned by the population as a whole.

    You might say this wouldn't work as people would be selfish but I'm not so sure, if we had a truly equal society and didn't define equality by a black and white person both being able to go into the pub then I don't think people would be so selfish.

    In the society we have now in these so called democracies some people are born into massive wealth and other people are born dirt poor, there are entire towns and villages in Africa and the Middle East that have virtually no crime and that's because there is not much difference in wealth among the population but you can guarantee that if half that town became wealthy and segregated that large amounts of crime would come quickly.

    The point is that if we weren't so segregated and didn't have such wealth inequality then people would be far less inclined to steal and find it far less morally acceptable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,008 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I haven’t read all nine pages of replies, but I can summarise my position on Communism in a few lines. It sounds great in theory, but the anti-capitalism aspects fly in the face of human nature. We naturally look to improve our standings relative to others, to look for good deals, make a bit of profit, and so on.

    Communism asks people to give all that up, which is something they would not do by choice. As a result, all attempts to implement Communism in the real world run into this “selfishness” problem and those in charge end up using State violence to enforce Communist policies. Which never ends well.

    So, Communism exists only on paper, despite attempts to implement it The world has never seen a genuinely functioning Communist economy, and there are good reasons why we never will. People just don’t work that way.

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,270 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    You got to get this naive idea of "equality" out of your head.

    While equality of opportunity should exist and does exist, equality of outcomes should not.

    If I work hard at school and do my best and get a good job that pays well, and work hard at thst job and get promoted why should the guy who was lazy at school, went straight on the dole etc have the same outcome as me ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    I don't know how exactly to reply to this I'm not a sociological expert but there is a reason why people born into wealth almost always do the things you described and people born into poverty mostly don't.

    Now there are some people like yourself born into wealth and go to school, college then get a great job who believe it has nothing to do with the sociological factors and more to do with your superiority to the rest of the population.

    Now that's a general viewpoint I just made, obviously some people born poor manage to do all those things and some people born rich don't do any of them but generally for the most part that's what happens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Welcome Klaus.

    You will own nothing and you will be happy.

    Now, be so kind and define "need" and how satisfying everybody's need would be achieved equally.

    Little white car for everyone? Or a big one maybe?


    It truly is an eye opener how mostly people in the west think how communism is a great idea. Those who never had to experience any of it. Everywhere it was tried majority always end up revolting against it or against attempts of implementing it when they are subjected to that flawed ideology. It sometimes take 40 years but people always reject it. Simply because nobody would be able to become happy taking only what they need.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Not this crap again ''it's been tried and it didn't work'' tried by who? That lunatic Joseph Stalin? China today? China claims to be communist but has the biggest wealth inequalities in the world despite it officially calling itself communist its far from it.

    Prior to the formation of the Communist Parties in the ‘20s, the word “communism” had always been used by socialists or radicals to refer to a society where there is not a division into a dominating, exploiting class on the one hand, and a class that is subordinate, does the work of producing things, and is exploited by the dominating class on the other hand. In other words, a communist society is a classless society.



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