Is communism as bad as people say

Harryd225 · 26-12-2021 12:03am

I'm not a communist I'm just theorising the idea to better understand it, people seem convinced that the only societies that czn work are these so called democracies we have now full of two party systems that hardly ever lose power no matter what.

Someone said earlier even if communism could work people wouldn't be prepared to give up what they had which is rubbish, if communism could work then the vast majority of people would be far better off with it, the only people who would have a problem with it would be the rich and powerful as they would be the ones with the most to lose, they are also the ones with the most power to convince you that it won't work and the most power to keep things the way they are as that works out best for them.

The top 1% of Americans have 16 times more wealth than the bottom 50%, that wealth means power, these people both are and have power over the media, political parties, large corporations, basically power overthe whole system, the power to influence your opinion.

There's hardly any difference between the Communist state of China and the most prevalent democracies in the world, yeah the people in China can't really vote for the government but even if they could it wouldn't make a bloody difference, the most prevalent democracies around the world all have the same two parties with identical policies elected every election anyway, that won't change unless the rich and powerful decide they want it to, they are the only ones with the power to get a mass of people to vote a certain way. (apart from revolution).

storker · 26-12-2021 12:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118256047#Comment_118256047

It's a great example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

Fr Tod Umptious · 26-12-2021 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373160#Comment_118373160

When you need to start making (incorrect) assumptions about the people you are debating with to try and make your point then you need to stop.

Harryd225 · 26-12-2021 12:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373311#Comment_118373311

I didn't need it to make my point, my point is very clear to anyone who reads that post wether I put that part in it or not.

26-12-2021 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373130#Comment_118373130

This cut throat individualism of yous do well in school etc and prosper is great in theory and what not......but will leave that lazier lads kids behind and expressed across 2 to 3 generations will lead to massive divides/wealth inequality,which will make equality of oppurtunity only an abstract concept at best and cause social unrest as entire sections of population are left behind though??

Yous look at ireland,we have some unbelivably wealthy individuals,who could own the world,while several hundred are fed in soup runs everyday in dublin.....in 20 to 30 years time,if we continue down this path,where will it end??....its certainly a grim prospect for an ever increasing number of people for whom being labeled lazy is simply unfair imo

Fr Tod Umptious · 26-12-2021 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373682#Comment_118373682

But trying to do your best in school is not "cut throat individualism", it's just human nature and the common sense observation that if one does well in school ones prospects are better.

I'm not trying to be one of the 1% but I'm trying to give myself and my family more financial security than we when I was growing up.

And obviously there are poverty traps, but as a country we have supports to try and help people out of those traps.

But there can never have an equality where everyone is on exactly the same level, human nature just does not work that way.

And that's why communism fails.

Tony EH · 26-12-2021 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373187#Comment_118373187

It's never been tried. That's the point.

Now I say that as someone who's interest in Communism is from an historical point of view. I don't think Communism can work, at least not on a very large scale. But the fact of the matter is that no country that has claimed to be modelling a Communist future has been anything of the sort. Not a single nation has ever achieved Communism, especially not the USSR, that's for damn sure.

Strict adherents to the Communist ideal may be "naive", as TomTomTim said. But equally naive are the people who dismiss it completely while pointing at entities that fail any kind of "Communist test" and use that as some sort of proof of position. And at the end of the day, I'd say that most people are probably far more comfortable with the idea of Democratic Socialism, than they would be with full on Communism. To be honest, I'd wager that actual Communists are few and far between.

The thing is, though, this bastardised version of Capitalism that's prevalent today is failing and failing demonstrably. In too many countries (rich countries) people are finding harder and harder to simply get by and attain the basics, like a roof over one's head while looking at a tiny, tiny, percentage of people hoover up all the wealth. More wealth than they could squander in 50 lifetimes. It's that kind of crazy result that will have younger people looking to other means to try. It'll also have the older crowd rethinking their positions too as they see their offspring struggle.

There are dyed in the wool Thatcherites that I know that think everything has gone waaaay too far...now that their kids are subject to the realities of never even hoping to own their own house.

26-12-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373736#Comment_118373736

Do you not feel this wanting to do better,while admirable and everyone should etc....without a complete 100% tax on inheritance(which im not proposing here btw),

wealth will simply compound across generations......thus making your equality of oppurtunity a noble quest,but ultimately only abstract and destained to failure like communism??

These supports out of poverty trap simply cant work enough in a society which places individual/finacial/family gain above society......a growing econmy that deosnt raise living standreds for all engaged in it is ultimately a pointless exerise in wealth accumulation for an ever decreasing number of people.....communism is a load of poke,but this cut throat individualism is destained to collaspe in on itself,the same as the ussr did

joseywhales · 26-12-2021 1:14pm

I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Certainly we should strive to put all the resources we can into early childhood development for all. It improves our human capital which leads to further prosperity. However after that, it's every man and woman for themselves, where competition drives standards.

Eduard Khil · 26-12-2021 1:26pm

Communism is great in theory but poor in practice same vein freedom fighters and revolutionaries often become despots and tyrants once their ideals are realised.

Fr Tod Umptious · 26-12-2021 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373949#Comment_118373949

people are finding harder and harder to simply get by and attain the basics, like a roof over one's head

But the "eye" test shows different.

Take Ireland for example

Just look at the RTE Archive site and see the state of Ireland 40 and 50 years ago.

Then look around you, look at the improvement in infrastructure, look at the improvement in personal wealth, look at multiple cars in driveways, look at the far superior quality of housing, look at volume and variety of food, look at everything we have in our homes.

Look at the quality of jobs we have, in IT, finance, engineering, science etc

And I'm not talking about the wealthy here, I'm taking about normal working people.

Sure we have problems with housing and mental health, but that's only because they have come out of the shadows and they are visible.

Years ago a young person with mental health issues would not be homeless because they would already be in one of the many psychiatric hospitals dotted up and down the country, with no chance of ever getting out again.

So don't give me this styck that people are finding it harder to attain the basics, because they are not.

26-12-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374258#Comment_118374258

30 to 40 years ago,a toaster was considered an expensive wedding present...they can be got for e8 nowadays

30 to 40 years ago,despite a horrendous interest rates,a house could be bought and family raised on one average enough income,that same job today wont rent you a one bedroom flat in my local town.....someone has to do these.jobs...its only right and fair they should aspire to above....a failure for this to happen has nothing to do with communism (which to best my knowledge works strongly to oppose it and provides social housing on a massive,if grim scale)

Tony EH · 26-12-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374258#Comment_118374258

I don't need to look at the RTE Archive site to know what Ireland was like 40 years ago. I was there. Trust me, there's not a huge amount of differences between then and now in general terms.

One thing I will say though, on jobs, there's ZERO job security today, whereas 50 years ago there was. Employment today is a transitory thing and one that will leave a lot of people behind through no fault of their own. 50 years ago, you had a job for life in many cases and one persons wage could BOTH buy a house AND raise a family. That simply does not apply these days and even for two working people in their fancy jobs, simply buying a house is out of the question.

My point, however, remains...in that the bastardised version of Capitalism we have at present simply ISN'T working for far too many and if we continue down the path we are on, it's only going to get worse.

Tony EH · 26-12-2021 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374286#Comment_118374286

And you'd have to be a moron not to understand that what you've just written is entirely relative. Ireland is, indeed, a "wealthier" nation than it was years ago.

But that doesn't matter a fuck if you cannot do something as simple as buy a home and are faced with scraping by in a dodgy rental sector for the rest of your life.

Mic 1972 · 26-12-2021 7:00pm

Communism and Socialism are the ground for dictatorships.

26-12-2021 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374849#Comment_118374849

I work in a town,where entire generations worked 30,to 40 years in same factorys.....its hardly delusional to point out,what we see

You can pick.out the old agri labourers cottages and land commission farms,which were bought and offered prosperity to entire generations...while today,people are expected to buckle under and pay 50% their wages on rent.....i genuinely dont see how this is regarded as progress.....

Capitalism (like communism) requires perpetual progress and improvement in living standreds,

communism rightly fell apart,as it couldnt generate enough to gaurantee its citizens future,this cut-throat individualism of thatherism can no longer gaurantee it either......it certainly looks to be an interesting 10 years ahead as this entire system buckles under its failure to progress,when consumerism falls apart as people concentrate on affording essentials

Is communism as bad as people say

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