Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Nuclear - future for Ireland?

1246757

Comments

  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The efficiency of AGR never materialised. They run much cooler than they were designed due to a rather over optimistic spec, and the specific heat capacity and energy carrying capacity of CO2 is pretty low compared to water vapour.

    With nuclear, the thermal efficiency is also a lot less relevant than a traditional thermal plant, as the heat source is not producing any emissions and is consuming very little fuel.

    Also the sheer physical scale of those plants is also utterly ridiculous. They’re about 10x larger than any equivalent output PWR or BWR.

    There’s a very good reason why the design never exported and why even for Sizewell B they abandoned it in favour of a generic Westinghouse PWR system.

    It has all the hallmarks of a 1960s-70s government jobs exercise. They were limited by what technologies and production capacity could produce locally eg lacking the ability to build or design the special turbines used for wetter, cooler steam from PWR systems. There’s some compromise at Sizewell B that was all about ensuring GEC got the contact for the electrical generators, to avoid importing from the US or France etc etc

    Money pits are fine, if the money is going back into your own pet industries. In our case all the money would be going to, most likely, France and their state owned EDF & AREVA companies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The Irish public probably would respond to the lights going out and agree to nuclear - the problem would be the process to decide where to build it ,Then the design process , then the construction process - all going well commissioning would probably be 15 to 20 years after the lights went out ...

    Can't see that working out too well ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Most likely by crashing environmental commitments, as I think will also happen in Germany and a few other places too.

    We need to get a bit more serious about building offshore wind though. It is one area that we could be world leading in, and somehow just aren’t and are getting tied in knots.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's also the cooling pumping requirements. Liquids are easy to pump because they have a relatively low volume. Some of the early UK reactors used 10% of the electrical output to pump the Carbon Dioxide gas around. Still don't understand why they didn't pressurise it to a liquid after cooling.

    IF you could get nuclear started how do you keep the public occupied for the ~20 years it takes nuclear to get up and running ?

    Nuclear is not a short term solution.

    Nuclear is not a long term solution either because renewable prices are in freefall when measured against the timescales of nuclear.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If the lights start going out, nuclear, with its bonkers construction process, would be too late to fix the problem



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The amount of nuclear we import is essentially zero. This is because nuclear is only used for static base loads. French peak export today 9557MW but renewables at that time were 9961 hydro , 8315 wind, 869 biomasss, 383 solar

    Flaws in French nuclear plants mean multiple reactors offline and gas prices across Europe have gone up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    That was kinda my point - it's an expensive solution that'd be 20 years too late ....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I thought the population was terrified of global warming due to CO2? No one has yet put to the populace a 'Sorry guys, we can't get to zero CO2 emissions without nuclear'.

    If you are a person who truly believes the planet is in peril from CO2 emissions, i don't see why you wouldn't choose the lesser of two evils.

    Net zero has, as I see it, two likely paths based on renewables: massive grid scale Li-ion batteries or hydrogen. Batteries + renewables delivering fossil fuel levels of stability and overall performance have been costed in an MIT study as being more expensive than nuclear, by a wide margin, with basically no prospect of battery cost reduction to match. Even by 2050, their cost is predicted to have only fallen to being 3-4 times too expensive to compete. There are unlikely to be any further cost reductions as that is probably close to the base costs of mining, processing, transport and manufacture, which are never going to zero.

    large scale production and storage of hydrogen and the eventual costing is a comple unknown, with a lot of research effort on cost reduction currently underway. As with batteries, it might never be competeitive on cost with nuclear.

    So does the population have a greater fear of nuclear energy, than the supposed consequences of CO2 causing AGW? Start building nuclear now and you can get to net zero 15 years ahead of the current target of 2050, which likely wont be met.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    How do you get to net zero with nuclear by 2035 given most of the existing plants will be closed down or closing down by then, not to mention how long it would take to payback the carbon debt built up during construction and ore mining.

    More importantly how much will it really cost and what will the effect be on the price of uranium ?


    Large scale hydrogen production via electrolysis and transport pre dates nuclear power. Gas storage in old gas wells isn't exactly a new technology either. Gas turbines will run on just about anything that doesn't leave deposits on the blades. Re-lining pipes from the inside is routine these days. Grid level hydrogen storage is low risk with the potential to store 3TWh here, and that's a factor of 10 more than the global production of lithium batteries.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you are going to reference something a study said, it's only fair that you link to the study so that it can be reviewed.

    Otherwise anyone can make things up and say X study from Y said its 10 times cheaper to not use nuke plants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    nuclear is not 0 emitions, but quite hugely emitting in the form of waste that has to be stored for generations at huge cost.

    the most expensive renewable is and always will be only a fraction of the cost of nuclear, which is the most expensive form of energy by hundreds of billions and even then it can only provide a bare bones amount and requires high levels of backup to support it.

    start building nuclear now and you might get it in 20 years with huge cuts to other services to pay for it if you are lucky.

    the public don't have a fear of nuclear now, they just see it for the ridiculous, poor value for money, waste of space money pit it is.

    the most subsidized industry in the country currently is a fraction of the cost of bad value for money, waste emitting nuclear.

    it's over, it's not happening in ireland, nobody with any sense wants to pay for it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Yes at present lithium is too expensive to use for extended grid level storage , but ...

    A - prices have dropped 90% in the last 9 years and are still falling.

    B - by (re)using existing pipes, pumps, gas wells and turbine tech we could store nine years worth of global lithium production as hydrogen in the old Kinsale gas field.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    So what's the final cost per kw of this hydrogen coming out of the kinsale field, including the cost of dealing with the NOX?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Just a reminder that both the French and UK have kept their missile subs on patrol continuously while at times they've had problems keeping one attack sub in service. This tells me that small modular reactors work, if you are prepared to throw resources at them.

    None of the seven Royal Navy subs were on active duty.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Check out the USA's new laws on forced labour. Now tell me that the African yellow cake mines are a workers paradise.

    Using iridium is an efficient way to electrolyse water, less efficient ways include every single lead acid battery ever made. Rare earths are not rare. Nor are they needed for wind turbines. It's just makes them more efficient.

    The big bottleneck is the exhausting of high grade uranium ores. The know reserves of uranium are twice what's been extracted so far 6.1m vs 3m tonnes. (most of the weapons material has already been burnt up.) For nuclear go get back to 14% of electricity production (the same contribution that energy efficient lighting has made) would be a dead end because there wouldn't be uranium left for a further generation. And that's not counting demand for electric cars or heat pumps factor in those an there aren't enough uranium reserves to keep the lights on.

    Nobody who supports nuclear can complain about large amounts of construction materials unless they point at hydro. And they can't certainly complain about processing ore reprocessing waste.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    More anti-nuclear BS.

    "an there aren't enough uranium reserves to keep the lights on."

    "According to the NEA, identified uranium resources total 5.5 million metric tons, and an additional 10.5 million metric tons remain undiscovered—a roughly 230-year supply at today's consumption rate in total. Further exploration and improvements in extraction technology are likely to at least double this estimate over time." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-long-will-global-uranium-deposits-last/

    Still waiting on that final costing of renewables and H2 storage and energy production.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    not anti-nuclear anything, just the facts showing why nuclear can't compete with modern efficient ultra-cheap renewables and other sources.

    the costs you are looking for would be a fraction of what nuclear could ever be.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My suspicion is we (and lots of others) won't meet the targets. The effort it worth making, but I don't think humanity is able to do long term strategy. In reality, short term, local and tangible drives political decision making.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You're not the only one - thing is though our 2030 electricity decarbonisation commitments don't rely on either hydrogen or nuclear .... There isn't time for either ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    So including the 'undiscovered' uranium there's 230 years at current usage, which is 10% of global electricity, or on a sliding scale to 100% of current electricity production, which ignores future demand for electric cars or heat pumps, that would be 23 years.

    So your plan to be carbon neutral by 2050 is to build power plants that won't output any power before 2030 or after 2060 ? That's some serious can kicking.

    PS. you can discover uranium by detecting gamma radiation from a low flying aircraft so all the low hanging fruit is long gone and nuclear power can't afford to get more expensive.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Look at the graph. Using existing technology nuclear power could only power the world for 5.7 years on it's own.

    Thorium means breeders with tighter neutron economy than plutonium and we've had multiple reactors breeding plutonium since 1944. Going to be commercialised any day now...

    Seawater extraction takes energy and hydrocarbons so it's far from carbon neutral at present. Also far from economic. Even if you could recycle the extraction chemicals or plastics enough, then nuclear is still road kill compared to the future cost of renewables.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    "Still waiting on that final costing of renewables and H2 storage and energy production"

    Apart from the electrolysis gear O&M costs should be similar and capital costs are close to zero for most of the other equipment that is already in place.

    I don't know the upgrade costs or even if the pipes need to be lined (not all steel is subject to hydrogen embrittlement) but it's standard process. Electrolysis costs - we’ll be at £500,000/MW at the 100MW level in the next three years,” but mostly the inefficiencies (assume 40% round trip) and surplus electricity at 2.5 times cheaper than peak electricity.


    He points to recent solar projects in Portugal and the UAE that won long-term tenders at $11 and $14 per MWh, respectively. “So with electricity prices like that, you can immediately make green hydrogen at a lower cost [than blue or grey H2].”



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    4 questions regarding the Finnish solution for waste

    1. What was the cost and how was it funded?

    2. What's the total capacity?

    3. Does it render the waste inert?

    4. Will the same solution work in all the other countries stuck with thousands of tonnes of toxic nuke waste?





  • sure if they’re dumb enough to fly into a big spinning wheel they deserve to die in my opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes, "might" have.

    those are the 2 important words, as in they don't know if they have solved it yet or not, quite likely they haven't really but we will see.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,861 ✭✭✭SeanW



    I'm not sure if this post is a wind-up or is representative of how mainstream environmentalists view the extreme harm they're causing to nature (among other major social and economic harms), but it should be noted that bats in particular don't just die of turbine strikes, they are also killed in significant numbers by barotrauma.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208007513

    I have no idea why we (in the Western world generally) seem to want to follow Germany with it's cold-war era Energiewende, wasting hundreds of billions of euros trying to harness disparate, unreliable "fuels" while wasting enormous amounts of land and natural resources, all to generate small amounts of unreliable expensive electricity that is up to an order of magnitude dirtier than is necessary (see a recent snap from electricitymap.org), all when the supposedly central problem of climate change has been solved for decades as the French have shown.

    I genuinely cannot see any reason for this.





  • It’s called it is what it is. Wildlife is killed on a regular enough basis due to man made activity and so on. We should sparsely use it as a metric to determine viability of something useful.

    a few birds are killed be a windmill, so what? I’d wager many more are killed flying into windows, should we black them all out for the birds, bollocks to sunshine in the gaff.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,861 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Actually, yes, bird-safe glass is a thing:

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bird+safe+glass&t=h_&ia=web

    As well it should be, in my view. And as for "a few" well as far as eagles are concerned, even "a few birds" is a problem given that these birds are endangered and have slow breeding cycles, meaning they just can't take mass mortality as a species (unlike the small birds usually killed by housecats).

    But it's most certainly not "a few" as far as bats are concerned - windmills cause more mass-mortality events than White Nose Syndrome, which is in itself an extinction-level threat.

    https://stopthesethings.com/2017/03/07/inconvenient-truth-wind-turbines-are-the-largest-cause-of-bat-mortality/

    And the worst part is that we're paying eye-watering amounts of money to do this and getting next to nothing - only small amounts of unreliable electricity - in return! Why? I just don't get it 😲



Advertisement