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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Here is Asst Comm John O'Driscoll on Morning Ireland..a gaard

    https://voca.ro/1grdnDhMtt4v



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    People who saw scratches on Ian Bailey:

    22nd - Jules, Ginny, Saffi

    23rd - Garda Martin Malone

    23rd - Arianna Boarina 

    24th - Billy O'Regan and Denis O'Callaghan

    25th - Florence Newman 

    26th - Garda Kevin Kelleher and Det Garda Bart O’Leary

    28th - Garda Kevin Kelleher and Det Garda Bart O’Leary



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Aren't you forgetting the one about the internet pub, the one he says he wrote the night of the crime



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    What is being stretched to absurdity here (if we take local to mean what 20, 30, 80 mile radius?) is an idea that Ian Bailey was the only person that the Guards knew of who had been involved in a domestic assault? And that this was a sound reasoning on which to base the hunt for a murderer. Detective Dwyer came up with a fantasy about what happened and everybody decided it must have been what happened. And someone got away with murder.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Ian was nominated as a suspect on the 27th by Garda Martin Malone. Malone said this was because he had scratches on his hands when he turned up at the crime scene on the 23rd, he made an excuse to get through the crime scene cordon on the 24th, and Malone was aware of his history of an unusual level of violence in his assault on Jules in May.

    I vaguely remember Malone saying he was the Gard in the station who dealt with Jules when Bailey brought Jules in to retract her charges against him for the assault. (Not positive about this one, so need to check it)



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Twisted english on top of twisted logic. "You do not know JT did not minimise it"wtf?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭dublin49


    If we both accept her killer was known to her or knew of her (highly likely ) ,and both accept the remoteness of her location and the difficulty in finding her dwelling ,the number of potentiaL suspects based on above must be a very ,very small number when the nature of the crime is also factored in ,and in that scenario Bailey with his history was always going to come under scrutiny,in my view most people would accept that.

    It was then up to Bailey through his own statements and behaviour ,compared to witness statements to dispell any suspicion around his involvement and he certainly did not do that.Quite the opposite in fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Just this morning, I came across an article in the Evening Herald dated 20 Jan 1997 which reports:

    "Detectives hunting the killer of Frenchwoman Sophie Toscan du Plantier have drawn up a shortlist of four suspects. Significant progress has been made in the case and sources said the suspects now include three Irishmen and a Frenchman. The murder is to be featured on tonight's episode of Crimeline."



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Soulwriter, you were asking me for the reporting on the Ursula Jackson statement:

    "Ursula Jackson gave another statement to gardai in June 1997. This referred to an alleged visit by Bailey to her home along with his partner Jules Thomas “sometime after his arrest” in February of that year. She said at that time, her son Daniel told her that Bailey had rung gardai to tell them Daniel “was in the area where Sophie was killed, making Daniel a suspect”. She added: “Ian vehemently denied this and was annoyed at the suggestion. “Ian said it was Sophie’s husband that set up the murder and in any contact he had with me since, he still maintains that.” She said Ian told her a friend of his had been interviewed by gardai and had been shown photographs, including of the defensive hand injuries incurred by Sophie Toscan du Plantier during the murder. She said in her statement: “I asked him what happened to her hands, he used some term like smashed and mutilated. That was the first time I had heard Sophie’s hands were injured in any way. Ian said this went along with his theory that it was a professional killing made to look like a local unprofessional killing. He gave the impression that the injuries to her hands were caused so as to look like an unprofessional job.”

    (I guess we could maybe deduce that they heard Ian was spreading **** about a "Daniel" and assumed it was their son Daniel.)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I accept none of this since the murder victim was the rich wife of somebody famous which would have been high on the list of motive, a list that went down through a lot of other possibilities before landing on the no motive random killer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    If this were true with Garda Malone alarm bells would have gone off immediately and he would have gone running to his superiors with the news.



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Yeah, he officially nominated Ian as a suspect on the 27th.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    On what date did Bailey claim he cut down the Christmas tree, sustaining these scratches in the process?



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    22nd. Jules and her daughters Ginny and Saffi all backed him up in their statements. Anyone else who saw him on 22nd says they didn't notice any scratches.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    So we're expected to believe that this Guard saw Bailey with deep fresh scratches, knew he had a history of violence and witnessed him trying to get through the cordon all on the 23rd and 24th Dec., yet he decided to go home for Christmas dinner, maybe had a few pints on Stephen's day and came in on the 27th, saying "no rush or need for searches lads but I have my suspicions about this madman Bailey".



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭dmc17


    And then they drew a pencil sketch of the scratches instead of taking a photo since the camera hadn't yet been introduced to west Cork. Or maybe if they had a camera it wouldn't have been able to pick them up quite as well as the artist would.....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    i'm sure many were considered and some may have been guilty of domestic violence. As someone said if a child is abducted the police will check out local perverts, so I'm sure anyone who had been complained for domestic violence was a candidate. we do not know what the gardai did but it's easonable to assume they knew of people who had been violent to women



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  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    According to Malone, he saw the scratches at 2:20pm on 23rd. He recognised Bailey at that time on the 23rd from the May 1996 assault. On 27th he heard that Bailey had gone up through the crime scene cordon on 26th to visit Alfie and he officially nominated him on the 27th (which is recorded in the garda jobs book for the 27th)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,269 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    From the DPP report:

    Richard Tisdall in his statement 190B recalls seeing scratch marks on one of Bailey’s hands on Sunday night 22 December 1996 (prior to the murder but after the cutting of the tree and the killing of the turkeys).

    Light scratches from gardening type work are least visible on initial day of the scratch, before they heal over.

    So many people saw these scratches, and yet, gosh how easy it would have been for Bailey, had he been the murderer, to keep them under cover given the time of year.

    And if he got these scratches at the scene, where is the corresponding trace evidence .. the briars were checked for forensics, but nothing to connact back to Bailey was found. No hair samples, no blood samples, nada nothing zip.

    I cant believe people continue to trot out scratches as evidence against Bailey. Its thoroughly discredited.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    Garda Kevin Kelleher and Det Garda Bart O’Leary saw his scratches on the 26th in Brosnans shop. They went out to interview him in his home on the 28th. They say they saw the scratches were "healing up". They did not have a camera with them. You can't just take a photo of someone. You have to ask them for permission. The sketch was done at a later date.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    there would be legal problems with a photo as he was not arrested



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    saying "no rush or need for searches lads but I have my suspicions about this madman Bailey

    even if he was that useless it does not mean Bailey didn't kill her only that had the gaard been more proactive Bailey may have been caught -if he did kill her-



  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭flopisit


    You're right I forgot Richard Tisdall. But you are misquoting the DPP. Tisdall claims he saw ONE scratch.

    The briars were collected and sent for testing in England. In 1996, you wouldn't expect to get any DNA from the briars. This was done just on the off chance they might yield something.... what the AMericans call a "Hail Mary". Even today, I doubt you would get DNA from a briar.

    These "extremely light scratches" he got (supposedly on the 22nd or maybe the 23rd) were seen by multiple people for days afterwards (23 24 25 26) and were apparently still visible to the two gardai who visited him on the 28th.

    What about the scratches has been thoroughly discredited?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,269 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Conveniently forgot? More like a deliberate attempt to deceive by omitting facts you are aware of it that don't fit your neat theory. So you were aware of a witness reporting seeing a scratch on Bailey but kept that to yourself, hmmm?

    I think that tells us everything we need to know about your honesty in these posts.

    The scratches have been thoroughly discredited in the DPP report. Of course, the DPP could be wrong, but if you are going to counter that you need some persuasive evidence and you have nothing except weasel words. You introduce more misdirection with talk of DNA samples, when if Bailey was cut at the scene on briars where was the blood, clothing fibres, hair samples of someone other than Sophie?

    At p.91 of Liam Hogan’s first report the briars which the Gardaí allege scratched Sophie and her murderer show razor like thorns. The photographs are referred to.

    Dr. Louise Barnes, a dermatologist (skin specialist) closely observed Bailey some five days after the murder. She states “at no time, did he strike one as being suspicious. As a keen observer of peoples appearance due to my profession I certainly did not notice any marks or injuries to his face or hands.”

    Denis O’Callaghan saw Bailey on 24 December 1996 (the day after the murder) and he noticed multiple light scratches on Bailey’s arms.

    From the evidence available it seems clear that the scratches caused to Bailey by cutting the tree and killing the turkeys were not of a very grave nature and it is not therefore surprising that certain patrons in a pub on the night of 22 December 1996 did not observe them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,269 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Why wasnt he arrested then?

    If the Guards cite the scratches as evidence of guilt then it could be used as basis for arrest. They cant have it both ways.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DontHitTheDitch


    You can't just get an arrest warrant because someone has scratches. They have to have reasonable suspicion. That emerged as they found out he misled them regarding his whereabouts, acted suspiciously when he saw two gardai in Schull, was reported to have had a bonfire directly behind the studio house, made comments to several people suggesting he had actually committed the crime, reported details not then in the public domain etc.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Well your logic is fatally flawed right there. The house's very remoteness makes it relatively easy to find. It's unlikely there would have been many random innocent passers by given it is at the end of a long cul de sac but it would be easily found by someone given fairly straightforward directions.



This discussion has been closed.
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