Land Commission/Ownership over time

Different times. Those were times of war with the threat of people being shot. The threat of loss of life does tend to influence a government.

I'm not advocating violence merely stating the situations.

We're not in a generation of violence anymore and a bit away from the world wars and civil and independence wars.

Do you think if a western Monarchy country or province became a Republic nowadays or joined to an existing Republic, land ownership would change?

Was the commission in the 20’s, did something else happen in the 70’s? Where fans were sold here and the families moved to Meath/Westmeath

Allot of families were able to extend holdings here because of of it

Started in 1923 and ended in 1960's as far as i know.

Nothing would happen them.

You and I know what rules now is money. And money dictates policy.

You can see all these environmental groups set up in Ireland. They're ngo's but set themselves up with government money and private sponsorship. It's the private sponsorship that dictates what they lobby for.

It's full blown open in the UK and just creeping in here. What they call for is more wilderness which the big estates and landlords can provide. So they'll go along with that, even support them as it's a means to an end. Of course the big multinationals are delighted as it allows them to buy estates and carbon offset themselves and be holier than thou while they themselves probably fund the ngo's and if Common Agricultural Policy money now comes to fund the wilderness estates so much the better. Job done.

All win except who the Common Agricultural Policy was originally set up for.

It's not a great future imo. But is to others with full pockets.

And it's the original small holder tenant farmers that have expanded buying up the holdings.

Those land commission holdings were sold by the third generation - who were well educated - and are now doing exceptionally well. A system that was of its time and worked out very well

I stand corrected but did the Land Commission also allocate land to "foreigners" (mostly displaced Belgium/Dutch farmers) after the Second World War?

De valera brought in legislation which meant that the farmers at the time went to bed as tenants and woke up in morning as landowners. The Brits had to borrow huge amounts of money to pay back the landlords for their losses. This money was borrowed over such a long timeframe it will never really be paid back in reality. That's how government debt and bonds work.

Ya, depending on how many innocent people they murdered they got rewarded with large estates. People on the land before them had to get out of the way. To hell or to Connaught. People think they have it hard now.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/

Most land was bought out under the land acts by tenants from 1860s to early 1900s

FounD the 1901 and 1911 census form for my Great grand parents. It took we a while to suss them even though I had a lot of the info.

It was as filled out in the King's English in 1901 as clear as day. In 1911 he filled it completely in Irish. Names, address, all the children, whether they could read and write all in Irish.

It brought into focus how the country was radicalised in the early 1900's and why 1916 happened.

Have an interest in this topic as my great grandfather was land agent for almost 30 years ,from mid 1870's after he got married until he retired just before WW1 .My grand uncle then got the job and was at it until the estate he worked for was all settled up in the 1930's .He died in 1936 and he was still at that line of work as far as I know when he died .

Landlord had land owned in Kildare ,Carlow ,Laois ,Offaly ,Wicklow ,Mayo and lot more in England . .Grand uncle would have travelled to the UK a good bit on business over the years .

Have one estate rent book here from I think about 1885 or so .Must have a look for it .Remember reading through it (covered maybe 5 years or so )and almost every tenant was from 6 months to 3 years behind on their moities (rent due twice a year ) .Just one eviction mentioned and that was someone who had got a farm a few years previous and had never paid any rent at all .

Lots of 5 pounds allowed off for Pat x for re slating a barn or 3 pounds off for John Y for putting in new windows in his dwelling .Also loans to people ranging from a few pounds up to 500 pounds with payment dates etc .

Not sure which Land Act the farm here was purchased under but must look it up at some stage .Know we were paying annuities longer than neighbours who has a different landlord .Mine finished up when the Gov. decided to end the practice sometime in the late 1980's/early 1990's from memory .Think it was somewhere about 10 pounds a year at the time .They wrote off all the ones under a certain amount I think .Not sure how long ours were due to run .

Anyone remember the "final demand" slips that came in the post .Think they were red coloured .Always thought it amusing that the one and only notice you got was a final demand .

As regards Griffiths Valuation we are still farming the land we had at that time (c.1850 ).On the Tithe Applotment we are farming part of it ,an outfarm where my great great grandfather lived at the time .

Almost every farm hereabouts is similar to Griffiths time .Perhaps 30% would have changed hands whilst others the name would have changed due to marriage or inheritance but same general family .

Land Commission was very much a curates egg type of thing .If you were looking for land then agitation etc was fine and dandy whilst if you had a farm where inheritance was unsure etc etc then it was a communist menace .

Know my 4 grandparents would have had very divergent views on it .One grandfathers side got a few divides .His wife's family bought land before WW1 and when her father died young they had a struggle to keep it .Other grandfathers family my grand aunt farm was taken and divided on the death of her husband in 1950's.Think she got Land Bonds or somesuch worthless stuff for it .There would have been c.70 acres in it and all those who got a divide sold it within 20 years .Was a very very sore subject with my grandfather and his brothers .

The land commission was full of nepotism in places. It depended upon whom you knew or what political party were in power.

Never heard that expression before so no idea to be honest .

More of a modern day loan shark is my understanding of it

They were collecting the money for the landlord so was it. The landlord was the lender like?

Same here. I never heard of them either but David mc Williams often mentions the gombeen man. He might not be too accurate in his description.

Land annuities and the 1930s economic war. I heard of farmers taking their animals to the marts and leaving them there unsold. Farmers continued to pay, renamed as rates.

Good description here.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/

On the History & Heritage - Boards.ie this morning

Our Farm was originally bought by a Catholic Lawer that was educated in France because of the lack of educational facilities for Catholics as a legacy of the Penal laws . He became rich dividing up indebt estates for the british government under various land acts . He may have used insider information to know the farm was for sale. . The previous family interests had moved to other things and the farm was inherited by a family member that was exploring in Africa and he married an African woman and was killed fighting for her tribe . The Lawer rocks up at the auction and bought the farm but had to sell some to tenants and probably some land to reduce his debt . He actually borrowed some of the money in the Isle Of Wight .The big estates nearby had bid up the land and he probably paid too much for it . There was always acrimony between him and the members of the Grand Jury with them levying rates on the Townland for Malicious damages when sheds were burnt .The Fact that the Townland was Catholic did not go unnoticed and he banned the hunt until my Grandfather lifted the Ban in 1930 .The Lawer was actually married to a Protestant and she converted to Catholicism on the death of her husband and was granted the right to have a private Galvanised chapel attached to the house . His niece was my great grand Aunt and she was the last woman standing and left it to her nephew my grand father .

Our Farm was willed to my Canadian Grandfather in 1930 and my father started farming it in 1947 . My grandfather only came over here for a year and a half and returned to Canada as did the rest of the family . A distant cousin worked in the Land Commission and everytime the file came to the top of the pile he removed it and placed it at the bottom thus stopping it getting in to the hands of the Land Commission . The Land comission files were sealed because of the acrimony it would create between families BUT If you look up the Dail records you can find out a certain amount about which of your neighbours were lobbying to have farms divided up .

I was told land that never went through the land Comission or previous bodies that the owners had more rights over minerals thabn divided land .

The Encumbered estate acts and the Wyndham acts were some of the acts that enabled land division . Some of these acts were to enable the Landlords to reduce debt . Some of the Landlords used the money wisely and invested in shares in thriving British companies and became wealthy once again .

Which never happened in GB, so still consists of tenanted estates to a large extent. (Although you do come across pockets of owned 100/200 acre farms...if a similar project happened regionally)

Apparently it was common if land was being neglected neighbours could petition to get land taken off man like above and divided. Know of someone near me whose relatives got wind of something and transferred land into a different name just in time to avoid this.