Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

Stephen_Maturin · 30-12-2021 05:48PM #1

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-considers-ban-on-sale-of-tobacco-in-state-1.4765676

Considering an outright ban on tobacco (as if all smokers wouldn’t just empty duty frees, depriving the state of ~1 billion in tax revenue).

Minimum alcohol pricing coming in.

Why is the government’s answer to every issue just to ban things? What has happened to the concept of personal responsibility?

I find it unpalatable in the extreme. That smug, condescending muinteoir “we know what’s best for you” air about them. And what frustrates me most is the vocal swathes of Helen Lovejoys who actually welcome the government further restricting their lives and their freedoms.

We are not becoming more liberal with time, we are becoming more Puritan. Are we on a slippery slope?

30-12-2021 06:19PM

New Zealand are going down the route of banning tobacco. Pretty good idea I think. It’s a worthless habit that has a bad effect on health.

It will probably go black market for those who are already addicted but long term I can’t see the appeal as nobody gets high off cigarettes in the same way they do with alcohol or drugs.

end of the road · 30-12-2021 06:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392054#Comment_118392054

and their ban is going to fail because all prohibition does.

it implements a mystical nature in relation to any sort of drug and tobacco won't be any different even though as you rightly point out it does not get one high.

Ubbquittious · 30-12-2021 06:49PM

There has been a real move towards Orwellianism in the past few years

Mandatory speed limiters for cars

Covid certs

Cashless society

Carbon taxes

Impending fags ban?

I wonder does anyone still value their freedom? Anyone who is against any of these things is automatically branded as a conspiracy theorist or Trump supporter

thefallingman · 30-12-2021 06:51PM

We've been a nanny state for a long time, but there is serious benefits to not having tobacco in our country for the good of our health, and that of our children, but like many are pointing out, how do you police it.

Tell me how · 30-12-2021 06:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

Why is the government’s answer to every issue just to ban things?

You say this like both the tobacco and alcohol industries have continued for decades after the evidence of their destructive impact became evidence.

I'm not in favour of outright bans, off the cuff, but that hasn't come close to happening in either of these cases. I am a former smoker who really enjoyed the act of smoking a cigarette and luckily I was never a heavy smoker but I have no problem with the scaled manner in which it has been targeted for reducing the number of people doing it because it was accompanied by massively overwhelming evidence as to its harm.

Why shouldn't a government look at the potential risks to the health of a society and look to mitigate against them? Why should we have an expectation to be able to do whatever we want, whenever we want, when we rely on cohabiting and engaging with everyone else in society as part of our existence.

TheRepentent · 30-12-2021 06:58PM

Pointless banning it completely...we'd just end up giving criminal gangs more money. Look at prohibition in the states and the war on drugs.

end of the road · 30-12-2021 07:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

covid certs only exist because of those who won't get vaccinated because doctor youtube, and because those of us who are vaccinated have a right to go about our business seeing as we are responsible adults who took personal responsibility.

carbon taxes are necessary so as to make things more efficient and hugely cut ridiculous pollution levels.

speed limiters have been fitted to trucks and buses for as long as i can remember, so it actually makes sense to fit them to cars as well given people do break the speed limit and cars can cause damage in an accident situation.

i will give you cashless society, i wish to be able to use cash as it's convenient for me but i don't think that it's removal is about nanny statism but about cost cutting by the banks.

i obviously don't support fag bans or nonsense like MUP and believe all restrictions in relation to alcohol bar the age limit should be removed.

HalfAndHalf · 30-12-2021 07:07PM

Posted the same link earlier today with the premise of 100 deaths and 1000 admissions to hospital every single day attributed to smoking. Surprised we haven’t needed national lockdowns to protect the health system with those figures 🤦‍♂️

Tell me how · 30-12-2021 07:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

What do you mean by freedom? Do you exist in a society where you don't rely on the presence and contribution of others in order to live your life as it is currently? Should you be automatically entitled to put their safety at risk just so as to not impede on your freedom?

In relation to 'those who value their freedom', I've noticed more and more over the last months that most of those who are adamant that there shouldn't be any form of restrictions are also adamant that immigration should be controlled and cry in equal measure about the introduction of covid certs while demanding that people should have papers to show that they are entitled to be in a country.

It seems to me these people aren't against government control, they just them to enforce the type of control that they are comfortable with. I'm not saying all of them are Trump supporters, I will say that a lot of Trump supporters fall in to this category. (and I'm only mentioning that as you introduced the topic, others will be along shortly to decry any mention of him on an Irish website.)

thebaz · 30-12-2021 07:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

I don't smoke or drink anymore. driving has become unenjoyable , but I'm a free Spirit at heart, glad I grew up in the 70's when life was for living - Today the nanny state or HSE tell us how to live, we are told we are a more compassionate liberal society, but in truth we are becoming medicated robots to the system, but glad I quit smoking.

Ubbquittious · 30-12-2021 07:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392334#Comment_118392334

It is just that the amount of freedom you are expected to give up for the common good is continuously increasing. It has been increasing as long as I'm alive but the last couple of years of it are really taking the biscuit.

BluePlanet · 30-12-2021 07:25PM

Pretty sure this is just kite flying.

magicbastarder · 30-12-2021 07:30PM

the notion of speed limiters in cars being a sign of nanny statism is strange; complaining about being prevented from doing something which is already illegal is a sign that you resent it being illegal, not that you resent the new measure. i.e. people who complain about speed limiters should simply just clarify that they object to speed limits, not speed limiters.

re smoking, i'd be content if the price of cigarettes was simply set to accrue for the state what the cost of dealing with smoking related illnesses cost. so if you want to smoke, you fund your own healthcare and don't depend on the public purse for your hobby. thankfully smoking has declined to a point where the rest of us are much more rarely subjected to the stink of someone else's smoke.

Tell me how · 30-12-2021 07:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392359#Comment_118392359

These are the points you referred to in your earlier post.

Mandatory speed limiters for cars
Covid certs
Cashless society
Carbon taxes
Impending fags ban?

First one, a direct effort to deal with 25K people dying on the roads in Europe every year. Many of these who do die, are innocent parties. Covid certs, a direct response to the most impactful global medical event of any of our lifetimes. Cashless soceity, driven by consumer use it seems to me. Carbon taxes, the climate issue is a massive chronic problem with likely catastrophic implications for the human race, action is needed. Impending fags ban, not yet a law, has come after decades of efforts to reduce their use as a consequence of the evidence of their impact.

Covid aside, we enjoy more freedom today than the vast majority of people throughout history, the controlling of some of our behaviours so as to ensure our freedom does not impact negatively on others is completely understandable in most cases, and necessary in many.

corks finest · 30-12-2021 07:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

Yes

Brucie Bonus · 30-12-2021 07:38PM

Smoking does nothing but addict you and slowly kill you. I'm cool with it being banned outright.

Stephen_Maturin · 30-12-2021 07:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392395#Comment_118392395

According to the above article smoking and second hand smoke related illnesses cost the state €172 million in 2016

Annual tax revenues in Ireland for tobacco are in the region of €1.2 billion.

So would you be in favour of tax rebates for smokers or?

It's an inconvenient truth but they’re a huge net contributor to the state finances. The cost argument doesn’t hold water at all.

nj27 · 30-12-2021 07:42PM

Carbon taxes will certainly save the world as China adds 43 new coal fired power plants and 18 blast furnaces to their already substantial emissions, so our barely detectable levels should be an immediate priority of course. I do tend to speed a lot, but you don't have to use all of the power all the time. I'd remove any speed restrictor from my car and decide when I want to speed myself without input from anyone else. I hate alcohol and tobacco but it's up to you if you want to indulge in that and be an unhealthy pig! I'd love to ban porno tho.

magicbastarder · 30-12-2021 07:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392431#Comment_118392431

assuming those figures are correct, i'd say it's nearly job done on tobacco so; it's dying anyway because of vaping and other factors, little need to waste money on further schemes to drive it down more.

NSAman · 30-12-2021 07:51PM

While they are at it, why don’t they ban alcohol….?

that worked under prohibition …😀

growleaves · 30-12-2021 07:55PM

'Covid aside, we enjoy more freedom today than the vast majority of people throughout history'

There is no Covid aside, since it isn't clear when if ever the restrictions and the siege against the unvaccinated will be lifted.

Many Europeans of the last thousand years lived much freer lives than people do now.

Stephen_Maturin · 30-12-2021 07:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392462#Comment_118392462

Yeah exactly, I just don’t see the need for further restrictive measures

30-12-2021 08:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392191#Comment_118392191

It will be interesting to see how it works out. My feeling is that as there is no great buzz with smoking then the black market would likely be small. A lot of people will just quit or not start in the first place.

For those that still want to smoke it will push it into organised crime which will not be good.

it takes 2 2 tango · 30-12-2021 08:38PM

There’s a thread in AH started by yours truly 😆

end of the road · 30-12-2021 08:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392503#Comment_118392503

get the vaccine and there won't be any extra restrictions on you.

growleaves · 30-12-2021 08:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392829#Comment_118392829

We're debating how free Ireland is as a country.

30-12-2021 08:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392847#Comment_118392847

Unvaccinated people pose a risk to the health service and public health. We're in a global health crisis so it's pretty logical that different rules apply. Same would have applied during world wars etc.

joseywhales · 30-12-2021 10:40PM

What will we mix into our spliffs?

JizzBeans · 30-12-2021 10:53PM

Can posters stop using terms like "Nanny State" & "Orwellian" please. Its so cringe and embarrassing. Alcohol & Fags are a blithe on the health system and the cost of treating related illness dwarf any potential revenue loss.

If you really are that concerned about the future of the state, then why don't YOU get elected and run things as YOU see fit.

Jim2007 · 30-12-2021 11:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

But the problem is people don’t want to take personal responsibility, what they want is freedom without responsibility. And society is getting less and less tolerant of such behavior. When your lifestyle choices impacts the rest of society you can expect that your choices will be restricted.

It is not a case of a nanny state, but more a case of people saying we are not willing to put up with your bad behavior when it impacts our health, our healthcare services and our tax bills. It’s not just Ireland, discussions are going on across the world on just how much society should have to put up with one person’s lifestyle choices impacts those around them.

Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

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