Brother of Great Great Grandfather ?

Xander10 · 13-12-2021 11:59pm #1

Background:

My GGGF was William Williams. Born 18/12/1839 (Kingstown). Date of Baptism 10/01/1840 (Monkstown - CoI). (His Parents were John Williams & Eliza Williams (maiden name unknown). No other details known to me.

One of their children, John James Williams, my GGF was born 27/03/1865.

John James Williams had a son, Alexander Williams, my GF, born 24/12/1895.

The link I am trying to find:

The Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire) lifeboat disaster, list Henry Williams & his son Alexander as members of the lifeboat crew who lost their lives on 24/12/1895. Henry is recorded as being around 60 yrs old at the time, which would put his date of birth in or around 1835.

My family knowledge of ancestry is limited. But I was always told, that "my GF, Alexander Williams (DOB 24/12/1895) was born within hours of his uncle/cousin losing their lives in the lifeboat disaster of 24/12/1895.

I got this far years ago and made no further progress. So, in pursuing same again now, are there likely options available that I could explore, to confirm any family connection of Henry & Alexander of the Lifeboat disaster?

pinkypinky · 14-12-2021 4:22pm

First thing is to review the dates on actual birth records (if you haven't done so already).

I would then look at reports of the disaster in the newspapers to see if they list victims - possibly would say who was local.

What you want to do is research your family and the other family in parallel looking for connections (addresses, witnesses to marriages, godparents (though if all CoI then it won't show them).

Here is Henry Williams' death cert - note registered by a daughter. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05908/4677003.pdf

Here is Alexander's: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05908/4676765.pdf

pinkypinky · 14-12-2021 4:25pm

I think also worth a chat with the folks in the National Maritime Museum. https://www.mariner.ie/museum/library-and-archive#/

pinkypinky · 14-12-2021 4:29pm

Susanna Williams m. Richard Hambly 1877 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11135/8077626.pdf

Alexander Williams m. Harriet Haughton 1884 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10910/5985534.pdf

Both from Kingston & father Henry a seaman.

Xander10 · 14-12-2021 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321198#Comment_118321198

Thanks for all the above. I have details of Henry's 4 children, Alexander, Richard, James & Susanna.

And his Son, Alexander's 6 Children, Margaret Eleanor, Harriet, Ester Ruby, George, Annie, Henry (Harry).

Trying to establish a link of the above to my direct ancestors is proving difficult. I might return to CoI office in Dublin to see if they have records that go back further.

Xander10 · 14-12-2021 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321159#Comment_118321159

Does Henry's death cert state he was 66? Other records indicate 60. I am aware they often used guess work for ages. If I could find details of Henry's parents, I could perhaps make some progress.

pinkypinky · 14-12-2021 8:23pm

Yes, 66.

Check the RCB is open - they have a small space so may be doing appointments.

Xander10 · 14-12-2021 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322269#Comment_118322269

I believe they are. I will try contact them over my Christmas break.

pinkypinky · 24-12-2021 4:48pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/rnli-5640285-Dec2021/

Xander10 · 24-12-2021 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370432#Comment_118370432

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was going ahead this year with Covid.

Scrabbel · 30-12-2021 8:59am

You’ll already know that Henry’s wife was Margaret Daly. Did you already get their marriage details in 1849 in Rathdown? (So Henry was probably nearer 66 than 60 when he died.). Shows Henry’s father to be also a Henry.

I don’t have access to Rootsireland - I think that’s the main place to follow up on Henry Snr.

I’m not sure this irishgenealogy.ie civil records link is going to post correctly so you might need to search with the details above.

Xander10 · 30-12-2021 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118389681#Comment_118389681

Thank you. I didn't have the marriage details in 1849. Roots Ireland has a Henry Williams baptised 16/03/1796 on records for Monkstown (which appears to make sense and match). His father is only recorded on the records, also Henry Williams.

Now to try find the children (apart from known Henry) of Henry Williams born 1796.

pinkypinky · 30-12-2021 4:44pm

You can search on that basis on Rootsireland.

John Williams born 1829 to Henry & Margaret (birth name not recorded). Henry's a pilot.

Richard 1830 to same parents.

The next entry is a Margaret 1852 but presumably she's born to Henry Williams & Margaret Daly. Several more children in 1850s/60s to this couple.

There's also a Henry Williams burial aged 79 of 'Dynleary' in 1834.

Scrabbel · 30-12-2021 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118390806#Comment_118390806

That Henry Williams christening (mother’s name Mary) is included on page 89 (printed page 81) of the document below, which unfortunately stops in the 1790s. Funnily enough there’s another mention of a Henry Williams christening on the same page for April 10; no parents mentioned.

For some reason I can’t post a link at the moment. If you just google the following it’ll be the first result:

stbrigids300 register monkstown

Xander10 · 30-12-2021 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392690#Comment_118392690

Yes the Henry Williams Baptised 16/03/1796 (Henry & Mary parents) & the Henry Williams baptised 10/04/1796 (parents unknown) j, same church, just adds to the confusion.

I started this year's ago and some baptisms I got back then, I can't find on RootsIreland, with new searches. Looks like the RCB records don't tie in fully with RootsIreland. Maybe I need to consider UK records.

It felt like I was making progress this morning but now feels like two steps backward.

Need to take a fresh look at it tomorrow and maybe start with a blank page.

pinkypinky · 31-12-2021 12:14am

Not all records are in the RCB. Some are in local custody - pretty sure Monkstown is one of those. There are a few COI parishes in the NAI too.

I would avoid casting the net wider (pardon the pun) because it involves too much speculation.

What you need is DNA matches for both families.

Xander10 · 31-12-2021 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394257#Comment_118394257

Thanks for that. Should I send off for a DNA test(don't know much about them) or is that likely to provide too general as opposed to specific results?

Henry Williams, lifeboat, was born around 1830. The sibling birth, I found, for that year was a Richard Williams. Could he have been baptised Richard and commonly known as Alexander, just to confused matters? Or is that unlikely?

spurious · 31-12-2021 1:01am

Not unlikely at all. Many children are baptised one name and then called a different name all their life.

Scrabbel · 31-12-2021 8:53am

The one fact that stands out is that the John Williams born in 1829 to Henry the pilot and Margaret can’t be the same John Williams as your GGGGF, as your GGGF William was born in 1839.

So maybe the common ancestor, if there is one, is one or two generations further back? At least you have the occurrence of Alexander as a name in both families, which is encouraging.

Xander10 · 31-12-2021 8:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394755#Comment_118394755

Thanks, yes I ruled that out based on the ten year age gap, which I believe puts any proven link, as you say, further generations back, which might prove difficult to trace.

pinkypinky · 31-12-2021 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394297#Comment_118394297

Well, you can start with an autosomal test (Ancestry/Family Tree DNA/My Heritage) for yourself, but you'll also need a target, so you have to research the 'other' family forward in time to find living descendants, and then see if they'll do a test.

Y-DNA - if there are direct male-line descendants in both families would just confirm or refute a family connection but not precisely, whereas, what we'd hope for with autosomal is enough of a match between the two (or more) testers that would hopefully help establish the connection within a particular generation. There is an outside chance that your two families might be related some other way, so you need to keep that in mind.

Xander10 · 07-01-2022 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118396814#Comment_118396814

Thanks for that, very informative. Unfortunately, I don't know any descendants of the other family. So, if I went ahead with the test, is their a possibility of someone from that family being in the database and of so would they inform me?

I'm trying to avoid signing up for something that might be pointless at this stage without someone to match.

pinkypinky · 08-01-2022 1:25pm

That's why I'm suggesting you have to research the family forward. To find someone who you approach and ask to do a test.

When you do a DNA test, one of the components is a list of people with whom you share some DNA. There's no way of knowing who will be in the database that you match. The nature of autosomal DNA means that you can't automatically tell how you are related to the other person - you have to compare trees and figure it out. Of course, sometimes they might have the same surname as you or a recognisable name in their tree to help.

Brother of Great Great Grandfather ?

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