Schools to close again.. Covid

Jizique · 03-01-2022 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409553#Comment_118409553

Surely we have peaked, now ten days since Christmas so stretching it out for another two and a half weeks (till say 24 Jan) is nuts.

The biggest problem NPHET (and by extension the govt) now have is the huge number of people who have caught Omicron and who realise it is not the death sentence the zero covid crowd were selling and that the media all latched onto.

Gusser09 · 03-01-2022 11:36am

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2022/0103/1269583-covid-ireland-schools/

Decent report on RTE for a change.

combat14 · 03-01-2022 11:37am

perhaps all kids should be tested before schools open on thursday as they are doing in the uk:

English secondary pupils to be tested for Covid before term starts

English secondary pupils are to be tested for Covid at least once before returning to school, the British government has said.

In a statement announcing the measures, health secretary Sajid Javid said “regular testing is a key way to support schools and protect face-to-face teaching”.

Ministers have assured schools that testing kits will be provided as needed and urged pupils to test twice weekly, the BBC reports.

The new on-site testing rules will be limited to England, where pupils will begin returning to schools for the new term later this week.

In Scotland and Northern Ireland, students are already being asked to test twice a week.

The Welsh government has asked staff and students to test three times per week before returning to classrooms this term.

The Gaurdian

joe40 · 03-01-2022 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409608#Comment_118409608

Good article. I believe there should be no further school closures except in the case of widespread collapse of the health system and we are nowhere near that.

I'm a teacher and I like to think the work I do has a very significant importance in a functioning society.

Further school closures on top of what already has happened should be considered a tragedy at this stage.

Obviously I'm talking a few weeks. If thur and Fri this would have any benefit then maybe that could be considered.

Other countries are further along the omicron wave with lower vaccination numbers. We have guidance in this.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409500#Comment_118409500

Given what happened last year, the 2 days would be regarded by the government as a "Trojan Horse" to keep schools shut (rightly so in my opinion).

PowerToWait · 03-01-2022 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409614#Comment_118409614

That seems like it would take a very great coordinated campaign, with senior civil servants having to have worked over Christmas holidays. Also cost a few bob.

Zero chance of it happening here.

PowerToWait · 03-01-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409642#Comment_118409642

Trojan Horse??

You think the teachers kept schools shut last time? Or unions? Or NPHET?

I thought the government were in charge of education.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409690#Comment_118409690

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/teacher-unions-angry-at-plans-for-partial-re-opening-of-schools-39939594.html

Government wanted to open special schools and had a lot of trouble getting unions to agree to it, so yes I do think teachers prevented schools from opening the last time.

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409642#Comment_118409642

That's where leadership comes in really. Just give a clear indication that it's just to quash a last bit of asymptomatic transfer in the system and hope it buys us time. I'm happy to do the couple of Easter days to make up the time.

Omicron does look much milder thankfully and our vaccine rates are holding ICU rates at bay for now, there is actually a lot to be positive about, much more so than last year. It even seems to show symptoms sooner, which will really help detection. That two days makes a 4 day extra break. Even from New Years it's 10 days (should be symptomatic or testing positive on an antigen) instead of 5/6 (much less likely).

But yeah, they probably won't do that!

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409677#Comment_118409677

It's depressing when you read the extent of precautions in others countries. It's not like sending a rake of antigen tests to schools would even logistically be that difficult

Framed10 · 03-01-2022 12:37pm

Could the Dept. just scrap the JCT cluster days coming up? eg we have one in January - needless days lost in current climate.

All those seconded to JCT would be a valuable asset now to alleviate the shortage of teachers. Any Inspector willing to head back in to the classroom for a few weeks/months!!?

HazeDoll · 03-01-2022 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409880#Comment_118409880

Hah!

Inspectors are teachers who couldn't hack the classroom. They're hardly going to re-enter the fray now that everything is much harder than it ever was before. We were told when we went back to school in Sept 2020 that some teachers on secondment would be back in classrooms. I don't know of one single case where that happened. In fact, the little twerp who inspected one of my classes in Jan 2020 was back in the school in Oct 2020 - as a covid inspector! In a few short months he went from being an expert in teaching to an expert in the management of infectious diseases! Anything to avoid doing any actual teaching.

Framed10 · 03-01-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409896#Comment_118409896

Of course no Inspector is going to want to go back in to the classroom and the Dept. won't even go down the road I'm sure but......

In saying that there have been incidental inspections in Oct / Nov!

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 12:53pm

The inspectorate have lost any and all respect in this climate. Secondments should have been revoked and any available teacher should be back in the class.

.....but you are both completely right about the type of people generally in there

Bananaleaf · 03-01-2022 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409455#Comment_118409455

I know this just a small thing, but it would be €20 per child that a parent has in school.

Again, besides the point I know, but it shouldn't be a funding issue. There are far less deserving recipients of state money - parents shouldn't have to be going into their pocket for this.

combat14 · 03-01-2022 12:59pm

Looks like covid hospital numbers are up 74% in a week according to latest figures and we haven't seen true extent of festive season mixing yet - surely makes sense to wait for kids to get their booster vaccines first before sending hundreds of thousands of kids back to school and college ..?

The number of people with Covid-19 in hospitals has risen to 804, an increase of 87 compared to the same time yesterday morning.

This day last week there were 461 people in hospital with Covid-19.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0103/1269600-covid-figures/

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409455#Comment_118409455

Schools were given a small amount of funding not nearly sufficient, but procurement is a nightmare, it would be far more efficient to do it centrally and would save money. It's just a way of saying they are doing something without actually doing anything! Finding money like that will be easier in some schools, other schools would really struggle. Again, it would be papering over the cracks caused by the DOE, who literally never get called out.

We don't have a huge amount of modelling with omicron, hard to know what effect masks, ventilation ECT will have with something so transmissible. Endemic status might be the best case scenario now really, provided it remains a mild dose as the initial studied suggest

Edit..the only sensible article I read on the topic

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/people/arid-40767153.html

shesty · 03-01-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409959#Comment_118409959

What do you do with kids who have just had covid.....they needlessly stay out of school a minimum of 4 weeks just to satisfy this??

shesty · 03-01-2022 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410147#Comment_118410147

Actually makes me see red.The ability of the DOE to deliberately go out of its way to wash its hands of situations like this, devolve all responsibility to Principals,is infuriating.I am not a teacher but jesus, they infuriate me.They need to be dragged into 2022, this is not the 1960s where a local parish priest organises whip rounds and maintains buildings that way.The clergy are gone for the most part and the Dept need to man up and take full responsibility.This "but we always do it this way" attitude is beyond backwards.

I will never forget my aunt becoming a principal and spending a week on the phone to me learning about tender and construction processes because the school needed new drains in a yard and the caretaker was taking her step by step through how the flat roof in the school needed repairing.She needed surveys of the yard organsied (I am an engineer). She was a quick learner and did her best but that should not be her job.It infuriated me.

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410186#Comment_118410186

Schools run anyway, that's the problem! Everyone has a random opinion about schools based on the fact they went to one and their Irish teacher was mean or whatever. We produce generally good teachers, thanks to a history of education being valued, and they sort of just figure it out on the ground day by day. Even the articles around the Rapporteur for Children are telling, kids left in domestic violence situation, no access to food, lack of personal care.......this is not the job of schools, it's Tusla, the gaurds and social protection but closing schools is the issue 🙄

It's like they think kids aren't traumatised going home to this after being in school. Schools are there to educate, obviously the people attracted to it are generally caring and won't be able to help empathizing with the students but to lay the failures of the state in protecting our children on school closures is a weak arguement. Maybe that time could be spent disbanding tusla and just starting again.

amacca · 03-01-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410186#Comment_118410186

It's not just principals that are expected to do things that aren't their job in the education system.

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118406410#Comment_118406410

IBEC reporting 15-18% absence in food production and retail businesses today. Report is in Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/high-levels-of-covid-related-absences-may-put-stress-on-critical-supply-chain-as-16-986-new-cases-reported-1.4767858

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410252#Comment_118410252

Loads of trains cancelled too!

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409455#Comment_118409455

Principals are expected to figure out which are the best filters themselves. Costs vary wildly. No recommendations have been given. I'm sure some parents would be happy to help, but lots wouldn't.

Treppen · 03-01-2022 2:17pm

Is there anything to be said for another cancelled Junior Cycle ted?

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409880#Comment_118409880

Given that the cluster days have been scheduled for January (presume it's similar in other parts of the country) it would have made sense to scheudule them for Thursday and Friday this week. We would still be attending on zoom and kids would stay at home. As it stands ours is next Monday. So we will be open Thursday and Friday and shut again on Monday, reopening Tuesday.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 2:36pm

I just find it incredible that with hospitals on their knees no change in terms of closing anything.

I think the government has sat on its hands. Beggars belief.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 2:39pm

Nurses union head on rte. She is fed up with government dumping issues back to hospitals. Same with education.

The important thing is their hands are washed.

Bananaleaf · 03-01-2022 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410291#Comment_118410291

No doubt about it, that will happen

shesty · 03-01-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410233#Comment_118410233

Ah I absolutely know this, and have no issue with it.It is more the set-up where schools are hamstrung by the Department on certain things with a centralised "no this is the way we want it" attitude but on many other things the Department's attitude is "well we aren't taking responsibility for that, that lies with individual schools" and it seems very erroneous as to what falls into what category.It is like a bit of having their cake and eating it too, on the part of the Dept.Historically I suspect it does tie back to having the clergy running the schools (and I have no issue with that -the State failed to step up there), but the reality is that the clergy are a dying breed and no longer have the manpower or the budgets to continue as they were, but the State has not stepped up in the way that it should have, it is still muddling along using the old approaches in many cases.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410436#Comment_118410436

The vast majority of primary schools are private, for the most part owned by religious organisations. The state is providing funding to these private schools rather than actually running them.

Treppen · 03-01-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410436#Comment_118410436

Most of your prominent politicians went to fee charging schools with ultra religious ethos. It helps with defining "who's one of us" for doing favours.

So orders may be dyibg out but the land isn't, that goes to another religious trust. And allocated according to their ethos etc.

There's still being new schools being built with religious patronage too.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410655#Comment_118410655

The state will provide the funding to build the school, run the school and pay all salaries, yet the religious order will own it. You couldn't make it up. It would be the equivalent of building an airport on a farmers field that he then owns and tells us how it can be used.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410747#Comment_118410747

A wee bit simplistic . Education trusts own it not the religious orders. The trust would specify that the land must be used for educational purposes.

The trust is set up bt various orders but not run by them. They have lay governance.

Even if the trust wanted to sell its land it would have to be rezoned.

I don't know of a case where the trust booted out a school and got land rezoned. Do you?

The department does not provide enough funding for most schools. Thus the constant fund raising by schools.

Im not an expert on these trusts or composition. Most religious schools have reps from them but they are not a majority on any school board. I can say that with certainity.

Your analogy does not fly unless the farmer created a trust.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 4:54pm

Given the educational bullshit generator that is the department of education nobody wants them fully running schools.

Just decent funding.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411069#Comment_118411069

The religious orders have control and "beneficial ownership" which allows them to run it as they see fit, with the funding coming almost entirely from the government. They have been allowed restrict access based on religious affiliation (which is supposed to end this year). So, I suppose the original point was that the schools are not state schools and that is why the state is not involved in the general running of them.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 5:08pm

Again simplistic. The department regulates all schools. The Trust cannot do as it pleases.

There are hundreds of curriculars from the department regulating everything.

Every area of school life is inspected from teaching to the school accounts. They insist on interview panels even though the principal knows who he or she wants to give it to and largely succeeds. Many other examples of farce exist in schools.

The trust owns the land but what does that amount to unless you get land rezoned? You cite no example where a trust did that.

No school can deny a kid an available place in its school on religious grounds.

If its over subscribed it can give Catholic or whatever religion first call.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411155#Comment_118411155

I am not looking to derail the thread, but the primary educational system in Ireland is provided almost entirely by religious trusts. This is great if you are religious I suppose, but those who aren't maybe don't value the system? I certainly don't want increased funding to the current setup. It should be up to the owners and the parents to provide the additional funding in my opinion.

Your last point is incorrect, that was done away with (ending in 2022) apart from minority religions. I don't see why it should ever have been the case TBH. It is one of the reasons why I don't regard it as "our" school system.

Summer2020 · 03-01-2022 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118406410#Comment_118406410

And who says there aren't 15% private sector staff out? Family due to stay in a hotel in cavan tomorrow for three nights got a phone call today cancelling as they don't have the staff to run the hotel.

There's mass absenteeism right across the workplace. People can simply say I've a positive antigen test and they get 10 days off with no proof required. It's utter madness

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411184#Comment_118411184

I think the religious influence in schools is exaggeratd. At secondary level it's an exam subject. A number of religions examined. Nature of religion.

Hardly objectionable.

At primary preparation for sacraments should be moved out but bar that its not a huge influence.

However bottom line is the Irish education system is badly funded.

The religious issue is a nice distraction for the government. Let's set up secular trusts all over the place but God forbid we properly fund a school.

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411220#Comment_118411220

It depends on your beliefs as to whether it is a large influence in primary school. I imagine most Catholic parents think its just a few prayers. I wonder would they be happy to send their kids to a school with the same level of Islamic influence?

As long as we have this type of system, I think we need to shift costs onto the parents/owners that are supposedly happy with the setup.

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 5:35pm

Your feelings about the religious influence will be coloured by your own experience. I'm relatively young, just a decade teaching and I've had some bizarre experiences in religious schools and some very intrusive or overtly religious questions in interviews. I can't speak to primary personally but based on the recent case in Tipp I think, religious interference is alive and well.

But yes. The DOE actually don't want the responsibility of actually running schools, it would distract from the shiny nonsense they are flat out promoting with seconded teacher in an acute hiring crisis. The lack of intervention around COVID is just another example, the public are suprised but no one who works in education is!

I'd forgotten about the jct day nonsense, like honestly......last time we got a puzzle that took 30 seconds to solve (because I am an adult who already knows the information) and had to sit and wait for 20 minutes while we all finished because that's when lunch was ...........I did not wait in fairness but the audacity to think a bunch of adults would is hilarious! I could use 5/6 extra hours with my LCs though

Bobtheman · 03-01-2022 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411273#Comment_118411273

I agreed with you up until the end. First fund all schools properly.

Secondly allow parents in a locality to decide what they want. Im not sure how that can be done.

It's very complicated to unravel the system.

Without religious schools we might have skipped a lot of abuse but the vast majority of kids got an education they would not have otherwise got.

We do need a plan for the future. At the moment most teens don't give a **** about religion and should not be going to religious schools.

Even if religion in most of these schools is token.

03-01-2022 5:57pm

I will never vote for, or support, any politician who doesn't condemn the governments handling of this **** show.

It's not fair on students, parents or teachers to be expected to wait around for concrete instruction as to what will happen.

You can bet that the decision has already been made, but for some reason, ever since we had Leo spouting poetry and film quotes, they are treating announcements like X factor results

.... I've got some bad news....... We are in lockdown..... But it's a good lockdown......but pubs will have to close...... But not til 8

It's disgusting.

tom1ie · 03-01-2022 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410276#Comment_118410276

That’s absolutely criminal on the part of the DOE.

Why aren’t the principals unions (is there a union specifically for principals?) calling this out?

Why isn’t the media pointing this out either?

HerrKuehn · 03-01-2022 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411408#Comment_118411408

I think it is more Public Health that has been the issue. If you remember back to last July when we had the planned opening of restaurants and NPHET were to meet on the Friday to decide whether restaurants could open on the Monday! As if they don't need notice for buying from suppliers. It just shows a complete disregard of the effect the restrictions have on people.

How have we managed to get to the point where over the pandemic we have had some of the highest case numbers and toughest restrictions? The management of the pandemic has all been passive, set rules and hope everyone follows them. It is the easiest to implement of course as once the rules are set, it shifts responsibility onto others. We had restaurants closed for 7 months and we were restricted to within 5 km of our houses for a time last year! In Germany they managed to remain mostly open by having free testing available, this allowed entry into restaurants and bars, the tests were available all over the place, small towns, all over larger cities. We still have very few test centers, often located far outside larger towns requiring people to drive to them, not sure what they expect people who have no car to do. Obviously the issue now is the appointments are difficult to get, but if you go back to October or so and TH was complaining that people were not going for PCR tests. If you want people to act a certain way, make it easy to do so!

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2022 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411521#Comment_118411521

Yep. The DOE know exactly how many schools are in the country. They know how many teachers they employ etc. They are more than capable of getting someone who is in the know about filters to make a recommendation, put in a bulk order and distributing them to schools. Instead we have this shitshow.

Can't speak for principal's unions but I would hazard a guess that any principal would tell you that by the time they got anywhere with negotiations, they would have done the research and bought the filters themselves.

Main media outlets in the last number of years have preferred to spend their time teacher bashing. It's not really within their remit to highlight these issues because then it might appear that they are supporting teachers.

Only this summer the Irish Times ran the story 'Teachers can avail of 125 types of leave'. The most clickbaity of clickbait headlines ever.

Not even factually correct either. If I, as a teacher have to bring a group of kids to a football match, my classes are covered by a sub, it's put into the online system under a particular type of cover required so everything is accounted for. It's not leave. I am still working. But the IT makes it sound like we are pissing about the whole time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/teachers-can-avail-of-125-different-types-of-leave-spending-review-finds-1.4635276

teachinggal123 · 03-01-2022 7:04pm

Anyone looking at RTE 1 news now. Nice timing for that report to be released on the damage caused to children by school closures.

tom1ie · 03-01-2022 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411717#Comment_118411717

Well look I sympathise with good teachers trying their best for sure.

As with all things there are a few who let the good teachers down.

I’ve two kids in primary myself and the lockdown teaching was fairly shocking, although marginally improved second time around.

Anyway that’s beside the point, I really don’t understand how the teaching unions aren’t pointing the finger at the DOE and roaring about how teachers, parents and most importantly students have been let down on hepa filters by the department. (I know it’s not just the hepas the DOE have dropped the ball on).

I mean this should be low hanging fruit for the unions.

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2022 8:45pm

The media will just turn on the teaches unions and the teachers, they'll get public support because of the minority of teachers who everyone remembers that colours their view.

The education correspondents need access the department to publish their leaks, the only real news they seem capable of publishing. They won't poison their own well

Schools to close again.. Covid

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English secondary pupils to be tested for Covid before term starts