Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

Happy new year, and best of luck with your training for the marathon. Good to see you’ve referenced flexibility a couple of times. With your kids being as young as they are, there’ll be plenty of times when sticking rigidly to a specific long run will be impossible. My own theory would be that the long run is key, and if you get the 5 or 6 key sessions of the program identified, focus on them. Each week, one additional quality session is adequate, then stay flexible.

Over my 25 marathons since starting a family, the dominant trend has been slower times when the youngest child has been 0-2. On a log about your running, maybe my suggestion to not focus entirely on running might seem a bit counter intuitive, but I’m sure you get where I’m coming from.

Great start.

Don't put pressure on yourself on the paces - at this stage 'effort' is good enough - as the fitness builds the paces come.

The other thing is that as the focus of the week are the 2 big sessions - the paces for the rest of the week can be slower if needed. (Edit: but you're only a youngster - so maybe you'll be ok)

Your level of detail is top notch.

Fair play, P - you're getting the finer details taken care of.

I've taken both approaches to marathons in the past - a very clear strategy and a more relaxed approach.

Surprise surprise, the more relaxed approach was a disaster, anything with a clear strategy was a success. The strategy that works best for me is definitely the 10 mile, 10 mile, 10k. I haven't actually done a whole load of marathons in my time but its clear for me that a strategy works best.

A good friend of mine who came within a whisker of breaking 2.30 a few years ago, swears by the "three Cs" approach, I've stolen it but only applied it once so far (to good effect)

Control the first 10 miles (don't get caught up in the madness etc)

Concentrate on the second 10 mile section (it does take concentration to stay on target, relax the form, work when you need to and ease off when you know you should)

Character for the last 10k - its going to hurt, its supposed to hurt, there is going to be a stage over this 10k (maybe all of it) where you need to show your character and dig in to get things done.

**Edit - in terms of an actual, more detailed strategy, pacing by 5k or 10k has worked well for me in the past. The mile by mile thing is just too heavy on the head, some miles are faster, some are slower but if you can keep each 5k segment on track, hit your halfway split on track, get to 20 miles on track and then it gradually just becomes a race (for me).

As for racing during a marathon phase, this is largely individual but I do think with little or no racing, a lot of us run the risk of building up a crazy level of anxiety on the big day itself. Racing is a skill, something that we should practice, like all skills that we would like to improve on. The pre-race nerves, the mental side of things, the hurt towards the end, it all serves a purpose in my book.

**Edit - our club coach DH is a huge advocate of ensuring you race during marathon prep, in fact in a recent marathon block that I ultimately never got to finish (COVID related), he got wind that I hadn't raced in well over a year and was dumfounded - he could not believe that I was putting everything into one single race without practicing racing along the way, "embracing the hurt" as he put it is something most people just cannot and usually should not do in sessions, it toughens you up and leaves us no room for self pity (his words, not mine!). Races can also provide a physical stimulus that training doesn't always give us. I would emphasise that this I do think this is largely individual, we all know people that race 2\3 times a year and do really well with that.

The flip side is that we can overcommit (guilty as charged here) and race too much, try to squeeze everything in and simply not get the best out of ourselves because there is no real adaptations taking place.

The 10 mile race would be great but something has to give in that week, you'll probably feel you can do the lot at the time, and you probably could - but that does not mean you should.

As always great detail and some great discussion points that will come out of the log.

I am not really sure I am best placed to answer on racing during marathon training, seeing as I have only done 2.....but I will give some thoughts on this.

Racing during the marathon training block may be confirmation that the training is working, but then again so is lashing out a monster session, what benefits would you see yourself in racing? If it is chasing PBs then the work you do for the marathon will take care of those in due course.

Would racing mean missing out on a couple of key sessions due to taper/recovery.....if you plan to run a half would it be wise to incorporate this as part of a long run and do the 1/2 at MP?

Pretty sure someone on here mentions keeping the main thing the main thing 🤔.

C

Hey P, this log is certainly generating a lot of conversation. I have still to decide if it is great attention to detail or paralysis by analysis 🤣

I just thought I'd throw in a few non specific comments that jumped into my mind on reading some of the recent posts both by yourself and other contributors.

What strategy should you employ on the day? There is no perfect strategy. There is only a perfect strategy for you. As with every other plan in life it should be designed to both get the best result possible whilst avoiding the biggest risks. If you fear that as a 10k runner with a good cruising speed there is a risk that you go out too fast because the pace will still feel low on the RPE scale then employ a strategy to keep yourself at a pace to a certain distance before reevaluation. If you fear being too conservative give yourself targets to be met at certain distances. List your worries and formulate a strategy to mitigate.

Should you race during the plan? Yes if you would like to, no if you wouldn't. There is no reason you shouldn't if the races are well scheduled. This is your marathon, your hobby, your year. It might sound twee but enjoy it. Do what makes you happy. I know you are following a plan but don't be a slave to it. You have 95% of the training for this marathon done over the past few years. That's where all the big gains have been made. A 'key' or 'boldened' session can be rescheduled. Remember what L said recently on another thread about training concepts not having changed much over decades. Don't buy into the marketing idea that X coach has a magic session, or sessions, that will make or break your training plan. That's marketing to sell books. On the flip side you can run an excellent marathon without racing in the build up. The choice is yours.

So relax into it...you have it 😉

Just a quick couple of points. Specifically the 10m race helps a 14mile M pace session. i.e if you have recovered from a 10m race then you will be in a very good position to complete a good 14M pace session. Can you rejig the 14 mile M pace session to be 2 weeks after the 10m race?

Secondly, it is normal to positive split races especially early ones. You don't want that IMO. Think of the Daniels long runs: a good few miles in the legs and then the fast stuff. Replicate that: go out at what feels like a gear too slow and grow into it. You want to be running the second half of the race well and training those muscles you'll be giving endurance to in your long sessions. If you start fast in a 10k you haven't trained for you'll positive split by a minute (probably more) and you will lose that benefit. That may be the trade off to race: have to start conervatively no matter what. My 2pence there.

Happy new year P. I haven't much time for detailed posts but I'm following with great interest. All the best

On the periphery of all things running at the moment, but maybe posting on your log might provide a little inspiration.

As regards racing during a marathon build up, my buddy (who would have been coached himself by DH who Duanington & Ecoli both referred to above) would place a pretty big significance on racing during the marathon build up. In my early running days these races would be PB-fests as I improved rapidly, but more recently, as PB's have gotten a little harder to come by, they've still maintained their importance. Toeing the line in some of these races when a PB isn't on the cards because of where you are in the training block can be tricky to deal with mentally, but I think you'll be ok somehow.

The DCM race series would have been my meat and drink back in the day, and even now I'd usually try to get a 10k, 10 Mile and HM into the build up. Any successful marathon I've ran has always been preceded by a decent HM outing. (although my Antrim Coast HM from this year proves that a good HM isn't always followed by a decent marathon!)

I'm somewhat slow to pick things up about my own running, but I'm gradually seeing what's been in front of me all the time; I race best when I've a plan which doesn't involve arbitrary time goals. I know Sub 3 is Sub 3, but I think it might still be of some interest to you. Almost all of my best races have involved me cranking it up as the race proceeds and negative splitting to some degree. When I go out aggressively, or try to maintain a target pace I've struggled at times. My sub 2:45 attempt in Manchester when I hit MP off the bat, may or may not have been an example of this, but I can tell you now for sure that the next day out, whenever that may be, will involve me starting slower and working into the race. I know that this suits me and that the times will follow.

Looking forward to seeing how the journey goes pal.

Your first marathon, like your first 10k wont be your best. Just head out with the 3hr gang and push on when you feel its right. Simple strategy and on the day you will be more focused on what is going on around you than looking at your watch a thousand times. Better chance of actually enjoying and remembering your first marathon!

Some great reading above from today. I see you mentioned your shorter distance times point towards something faster than sub 3. I was in a similar situation in 2020 where the calculators had me somewhere between 2.50-2.55 depending on what app or what race distance I used. My main goal was still simply sub 3 despite what the calculator was telling me. I was chuffed with the 2.57(albeit virtual).

I had experienced running a marathon before that attempt and it can take running one to realise what it actually involves(I was reminded again back in Oct the hard way). Don't get me wrong, I think you are well capable of running a 2.50 or whatever, but I tend to agree with shotgun advice of heading out with the 3hr gang. I'm hoping to be part of that gang btw 😁. Any accom advice for the weekend?

Not all runners like to be in the paced group but if you do go with the pacers, you can't overestimate the amount of mental work that you save. You can really switch off a lot of the systems and just go with the flow, until the time is right to strike out. It's up to you, but something to consider, and also possibly something to try out in a tune-up race, if you haven't run in a paced group before.