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British soldier describes the technique of using children as human shields in Ireland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    Good point. The human shield works against many shoulder weapons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Is there any evidence that this practice was formalised by officers or NCOs in their instructions to those under their command?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    If you can find the American ABC documentary on South Armagh from the 80s it's been taken down off YouTube recently, the man in charge of the army in the area says something like this, when we are crossing roads or going through any sort of dangerous points in the area we always try to stay very close with the civilan population.

    It then shows small children crossing the road implying that it's kids that are the most preferable to use this tactic with.

    The army used to always build their army bases located in the countryside around houses and sometimes schools in an attempt to provide protection for themselves.

    I'll leave a link for everything I post for the rest of this reply it's all taken from the article at the bottom.

    ″I have become their front line of defense,″ said Kathleen Rutherford, who has watched with trepidation as an army post has grown around her home.

    Several of the army’s 17 border checkpoints are near villages, and virtually all are near houses. The posts have come under sporadic attack in the past two years by IRA bombers, who often hold local families at gunpoint.

    The IRA blasted an army post south of Newry in October 1990 and again in May. The second blast killed a soldier. The army’s top brass decided to build a bigger post up the road - coincidentally, they said, nearer the local school.

    ″This is the sort of tactic which was resorted to by Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War,″ the newspaper argued.

    After they built it they eventually agreed to move the army base after residents threatened to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights, and parents vowed not to let their children return Sept. 1 if the facility was not moved.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://apnews.com/9c372fb10f3306798a8ee8cbfba9c441&ved=2ahUKEwi5iM6svaL1AhUNgFwKHaKnC6MQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1f7bAxBBe1m82VaLqcqKmZ



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Thanks for the reply.

    That link appears not to be working. I have failed to find the ABC documentary.

    I was asking about evidence to link the soldiers testimony in your original video to any official BA policy with regard to using children to deter IRA volunteers from firing on foot patrols.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Just wondering do you and the other poster who defended these actions also find these tactics morally acceptable when used by groups like the taliban and certain armies across the middle east?

    Does it ''make perfect sense'' to you when they do it too?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    I don't know why the link isn't working, here's the link text just type this into Google and it will show up.

    Catholics Say British Army Use Them as 'Human Shields', the website is called AP news.com

    It was generally just a common tactic used by the British army in Ireland, i don't think there was any official written policy requiring them to do so, that wouldn't have looked very good. The army commander in the ABC documentary clearly states that they ''ALWAYS'' try and move past dangerous points and cross roads and such with the civilan population as ''they are unlikely to want to kill or harm any civilian population at all''.

    It shows a clip of children crossing the road implying that they are the most preferable to use this tactic with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Jequ0n




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Thanks, got it.

    That really doesn't address the foot patrol tactic which you mentioned.

    We already know that the siting of any installations was clearly officially BA sanctioned policy.

    Pity we can't find the ABC documentary which might shed more light on the matter.

    As you say it's unlikely any written evidence will turn up but it wouldn't really matter that instructions were not written if they were given.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    The IRA were defending this country. The brits are just foreigners or in some cases traitors.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its hardly any suprise,the IRA were knocking em and RUC over like bowling pins at times


    I wouldnt particularly blame any squaddie for it,its a basic survival instinct.....its cynical as fcuk,but theres graveyards full of dead heroes



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Doesn't make what either side did OK. Both sides killed and maimed innocent people.

    This country was never under attack so who were they defending it from? The island was split into 2 countries long before the IRA started their campaign, the Unionists think that its their country and the IRA where the traitors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭costacorta


    Gerry cowering behind a child when Michael stone started shooting in his direction. Hmmmm



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    It makes sense in the context of a soldier trying to survive a war & sacrificing children for their own personal safety so they can continue fighting in said war.

    Do you find Hamas equally justified when they are accused of using human shields during Israeli terror attacks on Gaza? I presume you would find that even more justifiable as the population actually want Hamas there as they won a democratic election in Gaza, unlike the British Army on the Falls Road, Creggan or the Bogside, who very clearly not wanted in those areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Well why go to a war in the first place if you're scared of getting hurt? Nobody forced these soldiers to join a army. Hide under your bed if you want to be coward.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    'when we are crossing roads or going through any sort of dangerous points in the area we always try to stay very close with the civilan population.

    It then shows small children crossing the road implying that it's kids that are the most preferable to use this tactic with.'

    Implying. You are implying it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Lol, you're clearly joking but just in case anyone takes it the wrong way he was clearly picking the child up as the grenades started going off to get him out of harms way and shield him.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not thats it remotely relevant and clearly an piss poor attempt to deflect from the subject matter of thread.....that child is sean murray,maker of the unquiet graves documentry



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Great point, they joined one of the most powerful armies in the world and they were fighting against a tiny guerilla army yet there are people on here justifying using children as human shields to avoid combat with a tiny guerilla force who were at a strong disadvantage to the might of the British army.

    No different to Bin Laden hiding behind his wife when the yanks got him or all the ''terrorist'' groups like Hamas or the taliban and certain armies in the middle east which are constantly demonised for doing the same thing, at least they generally do it to avoid drone strikes and fighting a far superior army, the Brits had no justification for dóing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    That's a good point.

    Most of the casualties in those early urban street battles between the Brits, Republicans & Loyalists were civilians caught up in the crossfire between the opposing sides, so hiding behind civilians clearly was as risky it sounds.

    Some examples

    Falls Curfew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falls_Curfew 4 civilians killed 60 civilians wounded

    Operation Demetrius (internment raids) - "Between 9 and 11 August, 24 people were killed or fatally wounded: 20 civilians (14 Catholics, 6 Protestants), two members of the Provisional IRA (shot dead by the British Army), and two members of the British Army (shot dead by the Provisional IRA). Of the civilians killed, 17 were shot by the British Army and the other three were killed by unknown attackers." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

    Battle at Springmartin - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Springmartin "Result:7 dead (including 5 civilians), at least 66 injured"

    Battle of Lenadoon, after the IRA/British truce of 1972 broke down - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lenadoon "Result: Indecisive: End between Provisional IRA & British Army ceasefire, Both sides take heavy losses, Heavy civilian casualties, Springhill Massacre, 28 people killed in total including civilian, army & paramilitary"

    New Lodge massacre - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lodge_Six_shooting "Deaths 6 (4 civilians and 2 Provisional IRA Volunteers) Injured: 9, Perpetrators: British Army, UDA, suspicion collusion"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Yes it makes sense to me why Hamas would be employing the same tactic. That situation is maybe slightly different because I think for many soldiers it is a mindset of “do your round and get out alive”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Fair enough I guess. So you'd be fine with a British soldier using your child as human shield from the IRA, or vice-versa a IRA Volunteer using your child to hide behind say the SAS? Maybe not emotional "fine" but you'd be fine with the logic of it?

    Yes, the situation is different as Gaza is so over crowed & it has such a high population of children it's hard to stand away from them even if you want to. As David Cameron the former British Tory Prime Minister said it's the world's largest open air prison.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Yes, and the Post-WW2 British Army already had a reputation for brutality from it's incursions in Kenya, Malaya, Aden, Cyprus & Egypt.

    From the Mau Mau Uprising for example

    "We knew the slow method of torture [at the Mau Mau Investigation Center] was worse than anything we could do. Special Branch there had a way of slowly electrocuting a Kuke—they'd rough up one for days. Once I went personally to drop off one gang member who needed special treatment. I stayed for a few hours to help the boys out, softening him up. Things got a little out of hand. By the time I cut his balls off, he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket. Too bad, he died before we got much out of him.[217]

    One settler's description of British interrogation. The extent to which such accounts can be taken at face value has been questioned"

    Yep, once someones balls, eyes & ears are gone I think it's safe to say things got a "little" out of hand.

    I mean The Troubles were awful, but really it was a walk in the park to what happened in 3rd world countries. I have no doubt if Ireland was off the coast of West Africa instead of West Europe then the British Army would have run amok, every Sunday would have been a Bloody Sunday. We were lucky we had support from Irish-America including a number of Kennedy's & supporters from the left in Britain.

    My mother witnessed first hand the British Army in Strabane, 1971 shooting a deaf mute in the back because he wouldn't obey their commands (obviously he couldn't), things like that happened a lot during the 1970 -72 period, but after the negative media over Bloody Sunday they were forced into holding back, and by 1976 the UDR & RUC were pushed on to the front line instead with the Ulsterisation policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I don’t have children so I cannot really answer your question.

    The way I see it is a practice that avoids open gun fire at that time, it is nothing more. If that what works then so be it.

    Gaza is a mess and would not be tolerated in such form if other nations were involved in the conflict, but I don’t want to derail the threat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Righto.

    I assume that you take a similarly sanguine view on dead Bloody Sunday protestors - "collateral damage", "c'est la guerre", etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    proxy bombs the heroic provos fav . even taught other terrorists how to use innocent people to murder for them


    Proxy bomb - Wikipedia


    nice to see all yall shinnerbots outside of current affairs and politics lol



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Would collatoral damage not indicate people caught up in an attack on opposing side


    It seems perplexing to try goad people into describing someone holding a gun at hip-height and shooting into crowds of civilians as collatoral damage?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    More whataboutery & derailing the thread.

    Go over the whole thread & quote for me were anybody said Proxy Bombs are fine to use in war & I'll send you £1,000 through paypal.

    Start a thread about Proxy bombing nobody will defend the action. And why stop at that, bring up Bloody Friday, Claudy, La Mon, Fish Shop etc...

    Start a thread about human shields, Blueshirts are out numbers defending it, derailing it & trying to make people think about other horrible actions. What did you make of the guy in Kenya who got his balls & ears cut off & his eyes gauged out? It the would make the Gestapo blush.



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