Fair Deal Scheme & Impact on Farm

bemak · 10-01-2022 12:29pm #1

Unfortunately we are currently in the position of looking for nursing home care for my father who has dementia. We knew this day would come but we didn't expect it to come so quickly.

The farm was transferred to me in 2020 in anticipation of this but as the transfer is within the past 5 years it will be assessed as part of the fair deal application. I'm not a farmer myself, the land is currently being leased and has been for the past 10+ years.

If we ignore the '3 year cap' for now (as I'm not farming the land myself), can we reassess the situation in 3 years time when the farm will be outside the 5 year assessment period or will the farm be forever included in the assessment going forward? My hope is to retain the farm and pass it on to the next generation - I really don't want to have to sell it to cover the cost of care which is my biggest fear.

Furze99 · 10-01-2022 12:54pm

Can only comment re elderly relative with house and in nursing home. Value of property was included in the initial calculation. But was reassessed after a few years and removed.

Re your situation, if you're not farming the land and presumably no one else from present generation interested, why would you not sell and pass the land onto someone who would make a living farming it? Possible that someone in next generation might take an interest but in reality less likely as no role model to follow. Just a thought.

bemak · 10-01-2022 12:56pm

I'm not farming it at present but it's something I wouldn't mind getting into in the future. The farm is small. 40 acres. It's been in the family for generations too - I'd rather not be the one to break the chain!

Dinzee Conlee · 10-01-2022 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449015#Comment_118449015

I can’t comment on the fair deal aspect.

But did I not read on another thread that farmland is a great asset transfer between generations. So it would seem there are good financial reasons to hold onto it, aside from any emotional reasons.

alps · 10-01-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058227043/fair-deal-scheme-impact-on-farm

You need professional advise on this..solicitor and accountant. Can say to you, BUT IM NOT SURE, that if you can cover nursing home costs for the 3 years, that he will then be able to apply for the fair deal scheme without recourse to the farm. If you are to cover this cost, and he may be abke to cover a share himself, which will be colossal, but tax allowable to you, it may be the way to go.

Very good help required.. If your own professionals fail you, I would be inclined to ring the likes of Aisling Meehen Solr..

bemak · 10-01-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449269#Comment_118449269

Thanks for that. 3 years will be tough but it might be the pill to swallow if we are in the clear after that.

Furze99 · 10-01-2022 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449568#Comment_118449568

Depends on how much spare cash there is and without being disrespectful in any way, how long your father lives. One of the problems of being asset rich but relatively speaking cash poor. Needs careful thought and even then, factors outside your control.

Furze99 · 10-01-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449186#Comment_118449186

True but there's also an issue for younger farmers who need land and not just leasing perpetually.

bemak · 10-01-2022 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449763#Comment_118449763

This is it exactly. Asset rich, cash poor. Look I appreciate there is an issue for younger farmers seeking land and not leasing as you mention. I think there's probably a broader issue of making farming a viable business that young people will be attracted into also. I take your point but in this instance the sale of the farm isn't an option for us

10-01-2022 3:52pm

bemak · 10-01-2022 4:01pm

I'm not looking to play the system. The fair deal is actually very fair in how it works. I just wanted to know if after 3 years if the farm is then discounted as part of the assessment. As someone already noted above, there are a lot of other variables out there and we mightn't even see out the 3 years if things deteriorate further. I suppose I just want to know what the next 5 years is like so that I can plan for it financially as it is quite a hit if we're to try and hold onto the family farm.

bemak · 10-01-2022 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450343#Comment_118450343

why did you delete your reply?

wrangler · 10-01-2022 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450410#Comment_118450410

The financial assessment includes any transfers you made in the previous five years so ypu'll have to wait for five years after date of transfer before you apply.

Its very unfair, everyone should have free nuring home care or no one should have it

Packrat · 10-01-2022 7:03pm

Tom Murray is a dedicated fair deal planner.

He's the most knowledgeable person in the country on this. Deals with farms every day.

He'd do a zoom meeting with you and family at a reasonable charge.

Its hard to get your head round all the rules.

fairdealadvice.ie

We are about 3 months ahead of you with exactly the same situation but I'm actively farming in a long term lease.

alps · 10-01-2022 7:25pm

Very helpful Packrat..👍👍

Belongamick · 10-01-2022 9:24pm

Sorry to hear about you dad and the family situation.

As already mentioned, get professional advise from a good solicitor and accountant.

Equally important is to get a bit of information yourself - citizens advice is quite good and up to date - hope this link works.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

As regards the three year cap on farms and business:

Farms and businesses

From 20 October 2021, family-owned farms and businesses can be included in the ‘3-year cap' if they meet some conditions, including that:

You must apply to the HSE to appoint your family successor who will commit to running the farm or business for at least 6 years
Your farm or business must have been actively run by you, your partner or your proposed family successor for at least 3 of the last 5 years
A charge in favour of the HSE will be placed on the chargeable property of a business or farm

You need to apply using the Fair Deal application form (pdf) if you want your farm or business to be included in the ‘3-year cap'.

I'm fairly sure that you can apply for the Fair Deal scheme at any stage that makes sense for you - need professional advise for the finer details.

paddysdream · 10-01-2022 11:01pm

Friend of mine went through this a few years ago .

Tried the" pay as you go " for a few months but nursing home fees are c.1k a week so impossible to sustain that long term on a normal income .

In the end went into the "Fair Deal" scheme or whatever it was called then .They told me that it was very involved .Leasing the parents portion of the farm (friend owned a good portion of it for a number of years previous ) had to be done at market rates .All the parents assets were assessed including savings ,lease income ,pension ,shares etc .

He told me a lot of Revenue and legal involvement .From memory it was something like a charge on the assets meaning that they had to be paid on the parents death before anything could be done with the land ,house etc .

Do know it came to a serious chunk of change ,somewhere in the region of 200k or so .

From my understanding of it from the outside I imagine professional advice ,both legal and financial ,would be of the utmost importance .

bemak · 11-01-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118451506#Comment_118451506

Thanks for that. Think it might be exactly what we need. I think I know what we need to do but at least it can be put to an advisor and verified etc.

Thanks all for your help and advice

tanko · 11-01-2022 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452970#Comment_118452970

Three years ago the HSE were paying nursing homes almost two grand a week for each person they were looking after under the fair deal scheme, i wonder how much of this they actually spent on the residents.

Fair Deal Scheme & Impact on Farm

Comments

Farms and businesses