Energy infrastructure

08-01-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438120#Comment_118438120

The heating system needs to be electrified once renewables start to dominate. That’s the plan.

08-01-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438269#Comment_118438269

It doesn’t need heat pumps if the source of energy is renewable, of course.

bk · 08-01-2022 5:01pm

“I get the impression the US isn't happy about Nordstream 2 and isn't about to let the EU make any such decision, as it's not theirs to make.”

The US and Germany have already come to an agreement to allow Nord Stream 2 to go ahead.

It is currently being held up by the German energy regulator, nothing to do with the US.

bk · 08-01-2022 5:10pm

“I found a dissertation that put the Norwegian use of domestic heat pumps at over a quarter of housholds, which of course means that more than half, don't, so what are you basing your claim of 'most' on?”

So you think that because only 1/4 of homes use heat pumps that the rest must be using oil and gas!

Well you would be wrong, once again.

As of 2020 Norway banned the use of oil and gas for home heating. The vast majority of homes in Norway use district heating systems. They are the missing 3/4 that you are talking about.

Basically any home in a city or town is on a district heating system. One off homes outside towns that are too far from such systems are the ones that use individual heat pumps.

“Heating with gas is not common in Norway. There is little infrastructure for gas distribution and form 2017 it is prohibited to install heating installation based on fossil fuels. Most of the domestic gas consumption in Norway is related to industrial use.”

https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-energiforsyning/varmeforsyning/

This approach of district heating systems might be worth considering for our towns and cities. I believe the government plan to subsidise the upgrade of installation + heat pumps in 500,000 rural Irish homes.

Sam Russell · 08-01-2022 5:46pm

Heat pumps are more efficient the closer the 'hot' temperature is to the 'cold' temperature.

They are also more suitable to homes that have a BER rating of 'A'. So if you have a river flowing in your back garden (so the cold end never goes below zero, and underfloor heating, so you water temperature can be kept below 50 degrees, and you home is A rated, then a heat pump could well be for you. A heat recovery ventilation system would also help.

However, all that implies a new build. While you are at it, install PV panels on the roof.

tom1ie · 08-01-2022 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439572#Comment_118439572

Isn’t there a district heat system in tallaght from the Amazon plant?

Not sure of the specifics of it though? Who owns the pipes, council or Amazon?

Do homeowners buy the heat off the council or Amazon, how much is it, etc etc.

But we are absolutely miles away from that scenario having any impact nationally in Ireland.

Same way heat pumps just won’t work in the majority of homes.

Same way we are over 50% (and that will possibly increase) on imported gas, which is ever increasing in price.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-01-2022 7:02pm

There was district heating in Ballymun from the central power station.

But the radiators were embedded in the walls so you couldn't control the temperature. All the windows open in summer and IIRC they were the largest buyers of tropical fish for aquariums because it was always warn.

So how would metering and control and costing of waste heat work.

Ear to the Ground had a report on how waste heat from commercial premises could keep most of the city warm based on the energy used by households.

08-01-2022 7:07pm

Funding from banks for polluting industries and energy sources is set to become scarce

https://www.ft.com/content/73615213-08ce-4786-9b8c-773029552bbc

Apogee · 09-01-2022 12:33pm

Unfortunately, don't have access to this SBP report on ESB cancelling three more contracts for gas power plants:

The ESB has pulled out of delivering three more gas power plants in the Dublin region for this year in a move that will exacerbate an already constrained electricity supply situation in the capital.

The plants would have had a combined power generation capacity of close to 200MW and were meant to be in place by the end of this year.

The Business Post previously revealed that the semi-state energy company had pulled out of a contract to build two gas power plants in North Wall due to finish construction in 2022, which would have had a combined power...

https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/esb-cancels-three-more-contracts-to-build-gas-power-plants-in-dublin-463a0ecd

Markcheese · 10-01-2022 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438269#Comment_118438269

Heat pumps may be wonderful - but the big improvement would come from insulation and airtightness - and that is possible - not always dirt cheap but over time people refurbish their homes - (that in itself would reduce the gas consumption) - air to air heat pumps are relatively cheap to buy and install and can work well in well insulated houses ...

josip · 10-01-2022 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448398#Comment_118448398

Airtightness is very difficult to achieve retrospectively on an existing build, can be improved yes, but only so much you can do cost effectively.

Sam Russell · 10-01-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448872#Comment_118448872

If you make a building airtight, then there must be provision for ventilation.

This is very important, particularly with respect to CO (carbon monoxide), and mould.

Start by reducing unwanted draughts through ill fitting doors and windows and fill gaps where there should not be gaps. Then insulate - roof space, windows, etc. Then, if the house needs more, try airtightness, but include needed ventilation, particularly in bathrooms and kitchens. Heat recovery ventilation is the real winner, but it is not a cheap retrofit.

bk · 10-01-2022 2:32pm

Thing is though, you don't necessarily have to go full on, A level air tightness.

My place is BER B3 rated and it is ridiculous how warm and comfortable it is, yet we use very little heating.

I've a smart thermostat and just checked, for the month of December we used just 3 hours a day of heating. And to be honest, that is most likely more then needed, my better half is from a very hot country, so she is a bit heavy on the heating. 2 hours a day, an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening would be enough IMO.

And that is with me working from home and wearing a T-shirt most of the day. Comfortably warm.

November we used just 1.5 hours of heat per day.

But wait for it, for October, was ran the heat for a total of 3 hours the entire month! September, 0 hours.

One you get into the BER B level, you need feck all heating IME. I suspect averaged over an entire year, we use it more for hotwater more then heating!

And here is the thing I think a lot of Irish people don't get about it. It is so comfortable. No drafts, home always warm and comfortable, no need for thick clothes or thick bedclothes. It is a real upgrade in quality of life. Once you experience it, there is no going back to an old draughty old Irish home.

10-01-2022 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449231#Comment_118449231

I've found the same. I moved from an apartment, with storage heating, to a B3. I put on the heat for 30 mins in the morning, and 30 mins in the evening. Thats it. WFH also. Thats with a horribly inefficient gas boiler that is on its last legs that I don't get hot water from.....I really should look at replacing it.

Its truly astonishing the difference good insulation makes. I have never experienced living like this before and its so much more comfortable and pleasant not to mention cheap as fudge.

bk · 10-01-2022 3:42pm

bob mcbob · 10-01-2022 5:04pm

Interesting article in the Guardian on the current ways to store excess renewable energy.

It does look like Green Hydrogen is the only long term storage solution

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/10/heres-how-to-solve-the-uk-energy-crisis-for-the-long-term-store-more-power

josip · 11-01-2022 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454810#Comment_118454810

I look at that and think, we need more turbines 😀

11-01-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455030#Comment_118455030

Definitely

timmyntc · 11-01-2022 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455030#Comment_118455030

More turbines running at a miniscule proportion of their total capacity?

Sam Russell · 11-01-2022 2:15pm

We know wind is variable. Sometime it blows and some times it does not.

Within 24 hours recently, it went from 75% of demand to 5% of demand. However, it closely tracked the wind prediction, so it could be planned for, and the appropriate generators put on line. Unfortunately, sometimes we experience the no-wind that coincides with high demand - such as high pressure sitting over Ireland for many days in winter with no cloud cover giving rise to sub-zero temperatures and ground frost and no wind generation.

The resulting high demand puts pressure on the grid. More turbines would help, particularly off-shore ones as the wind is stronger for longer. More interconnectors would also help, plus grid level storage.

Markcheese · 11-01-2022 5:00pm

I wonder if any new wind turbine approvals/ grid connections could be made to include a level of grid storage ... ?

Although I suppose it makes more sense to put large batteries ect near cities or areas of demand - yes the land price is dearer but there'd be less transmission losses - or dependance on a single line -

11-01-2022 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456188#Comment_118456188

Would love some more info on that Australia item if you have it.

I don't know anywhere that is looking at whole-grid-level battery back-up.

There are a load of battery installations for load balancing and short term backup though and that's where it makes sense.

For grid-level stuff you are looking at various forms of energy storage (pumped hydro, thermal i.e. Salt, hydrogen etc).

For Ireland we are going to be talking about using excess wind for hydrogen and then consuming that it in converted turbines. This will be in addition to wind, solar and hydro power. There was also an announcement recently I posted where they are going to start looking at geothermal to reduce energy consumption for heating needs.

Why some folks seemed focused on grid level lithium batteries is bizarre to me. That's never going to be a thing.

Every nation has always spread their energy production across multiple sources for redundancy. That's not going to change. What you will see is that energy storage will also be spread in the same way. This is a smart thing to do.

Markcheese · 11-01-2022 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450436#Comment_118450436

That could be a serious game changer - there's so many sites in Ireland that could potentially be suited to this - old quarries ,smaller mountains and hills - and most of the money spent would be on civil engineering- so keeping more of the spend local ,unlike giant battery packs ..

cnocbui · 11-01-2022 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455030#Comment_118455030

I nominate your back yard for one.

josip · 11-01-2022 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456414#Comment_118456414

I'd need to have a chat my neighbours either side; the base wouldn't physically fit in our back garden.

I assume I'd be allowed to feed in to the grid and it wouldn't be just for domestic consumption?

timmyntc · 11-01-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456308#Comment_118456308

Every nation has always spread their energy production across multiple sources for redundancy. That's not going to change. What you will see is that energy storage will also be spread in the same way. This is a smart thing to do.

Why is it then that we are increasingly putting all our eggs in the wind and to a lesser extent, solar, baskets? Theres no redundancy in that, infact both wind and solar our renewables often disappear at the same time (high pressure winter).

Spreading our energy across multiple sources would involve fossil fuels, or the dreaded N word (no not THAT N word, the one that glows!)

11-01-2022 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456346#Comment_118456346

Interesting read about that Aussie plan. I note they reference Hornsdale in the article. A similar facility installed in 2017 which has already paid for itself and resulted in lower bills for folks in that region.

Is there a plan for Ireland to get "hundreds of these" as you put it. I'm not aware of any such plan and it would be a silly plan if there was one. Sure we'll have a few, but they'll form part of a myriad of storage options as already outlined, so again, I'm truly baffled as to why you are still banging on about something happening when there is literally no plans anywhere indicating that it will happen.

Its like being angry about a govt plan to change the names of the week when no such plan exists.

11-01-2022 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456514#Comment_118456514

But we're not putting all our eggs into one basket.

We are prioritising wind, absolutely, in the same way we prioritised coal in the past. Wind will form the backbone of our production, and the majority of that will come from off-shore where the wind speeds are higher, turbines can be built bigger and higher and there is not as many calm days especially at the heights the turbines will be operating at.

But, as stated many, many times, its not going to be our only source. We'll have

Wind
Solar
Hydro
Interconnectors
Hydrogen turbines

If we were only doing wind and nothing else, yeah that would be a dumb idea, but we're not, because, well, its a dumb idea

11-01-2022 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456585#Comment_118456585

Might want to read that again

Trend in electricity CO2 intensity

Carbon dioxide (CO2) intensity of electricity has reduced since the 1990s. In 1990, the CO2 intensity of the electricity grid was 896 grammes of CO2 for every kilo-Watt hour of electricity used (gCO2/kWh). The instensity was still over 800 gCO2/kWh in 2005, but then fell to 636 gCO2/kWh in 2005, and 296 gCO2/kWh in 2020.

These falls are due to increased use of higher-efficiency gas turbines, increased electricity generated from zero-carbon renewable sources, especially wind. We are also using less high-carbon intensity fuels in low-efficiency generation such as coal and oil. Oil had been almost completely removed in 2018, causing only 4 gCO2/kWh. In 2020, however, oil's intensity share had tripled to 12 gCO2/kWh.

In 2020 The carbon intensity of electricity fell from 320 gCO2/kWh to 296 gCO2/kWh. This was mainly due to a large reduction in peat use and an increase in wind generation.

11-01-2022 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456767#Comment_118456767

No argument about the low hanging fruit.

Or about gas not getting us to zero

But again, you seem to be ignoring the point made several times, that wind is not the only game in town and instead are focusing on batteries as the only storage option. Why, I don't know, but you do you.

The "backup" for wind will be the list of other sources and storage options already listed. Batteries will form a part of that in the same way interconnectors will, hydrogen will etc etc etc. Batteries undoubedly have a role to play, but primarily in the form of frequency control, load balancing and short-term backup only.

Energy infrastructure

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