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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I have voiced no "position" - unlike yourself.

    Unless you consider saying that the evidence states that it is not a given that transgender women will (due to this advantage some people claim they have) always win which will destroy women's sport is a position.

    My actual position is that it is a very complex subject that requires careful consideration, making blanket statements about biological male bodies having an advantage is kneejerking until the full evidence is available, as is seeking a one size fits all approach to sports. Women play a hell of a lot of different sports - it's not all Katie Taylor.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Transgender women have a physical advantage =/= transgender women will win 100% of the time.


    I could enter the Tour de France on an electric bike and I still wouldn't win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Yet Transgender woman lost twice in same race meet so that's demonstrably nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,861 ✭✭✭RayCon


    I'm reading through this thread with a "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is" head on me 😕



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    =/= means does not equal. Claiming they don't have an unfair advantage just because they lost is a fallacy.

    Not least because on this occasion she appears to have been swimming well of her best times.



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  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Biological males should compete with biological males. Biological females should compete with biological females.

    Transgenders should compete against each other as that’s a fair way to determine if those who were born male are winning to a greater extent than those born female.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Crap advantage if they get beaten.

    Or, and this is the point - it's not so much an advantage, if it exists, that it should disqualify them.

    Most top athletes have some physical advantage that gives them an edge - do we ban tall left handed tennis players? Basketball players over 7 foot tall? Swimmers with big feet? Footballers who are ambipedal? Do athletes with these physical advantages always win?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Do you believe there are enough transgender sports people to make this possible?



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I believe there are more and more transitioning as the years go by. The stigma around it has gone but sadly, it’s a the detriment to female rights.

    This one swim meet where they didn’t win means nothing. Lots of reasons for being out of form for one swim meet.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Crap advantage if they get beaten.

    That is appalling logic. Are you suggesting no one gets banned for doping unless they win? (no, I do not think this is the same as doping)


    Most top athletes have some physical advantage that gives them an edge - do we ban tall left handed tennis players? Basketball players over 7 foot tall? Swimmers with big feet? Footballers who are ambipedal? Do athletes with these physical advantages always win?

    Sport is trying to find advantages and celebrate them. The decision has been made to segregate sport by sex as it is such an overwhelming advantage it drowns out everything else.



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  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Westley Strong Sunburn


    Has anybody heard tell of puberty blockers?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're right.

    Biological males shouldn't be disqualified from women's sport based on advantage.

    Biological males should be disqualified because they are not members of the category, biological females.

    Cats shouldn't be disqualified from a dog competition based on advantage.

    Cats should be disqualified because they are not members of the category, Canis familiaris.

    Low-fat cheese shouldn't be disqualified from the Safeway World Championship Pumpkin Weigh-Off based on advantage.

    Low-fat cheese shouldn't be allowed to compete because low-fat cheese is not a member of the genus, Cucurbita.

    ---

    You presumably agree with the bottom two examples?

    The only difference is that rest of us are consistent across all three.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    if you put, say Derval O'Rourke up against Mo Farah in the 100 meters, she might beat him. Put Sonia O'Sullivan against Farah in the 5,000 metres, not a hope



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,995 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Put a competitive teenage north american boy against the worlds female Olympic athletes and in most cases the boys win.

    The real question has always been, how much of that advantage is removed by drugs and is it fair for female athletes to compete, fairness being one of the main driver behind most sports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    If it's not the same why even bring doping into it?

    Caster Semenya hasn't been celebrated. Far from it. She, biologically female and identifies as female, is being punished for her natural advantage. In the 12 years of her competitive career she was restricted for 9 of those years - the most infamous if these restrictions being she should artificially lower her naturally occurring testosterone. Literally take performance inhibiting drugs.

    Semenya isn't the only biologically female athlete subject to this body policing to reduce a naturally occurring advantage. In recent years alone Christine Mboma who won silver in Tokyo, Francine Niyonsaba who won silver in Rio, and Margaret Wambui who it was discovered, in 2019, has an intersex condition. All were assigned as female at birth and have lived their lives as women.

    Sex verification of male athletes is not undertaken but a study in 2014 of 693 elite athletes showed 16.5% of the biologically male ones have very low testosterone levels while 13. 7% of females has high levels. Essentially the levels of naturally occurring testosterone in these two groups was pretty much on the same level regardless of biological sex.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    What relevance is this?

    Are you trying to say that women that have undergone mastectomies shouldn't compete in women's sports?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Castor Semenya is intersex, not trans-.

    What a totally misleading comparison.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

    Bizarre that we've got to the point that the people who won't acknowledge that are now claiming that there's 4 sexes! 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭plodder


    Cases like Caster Semenya are the really tough ones. But, I don't see what her being intersex (XY chromosomes) has to do with trans women whose sex isn't in doubt at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I'm all for transgender rights, live and let live. Unfortunately there is an issue with sport, that does need a solution, unfortunately allowing people born male to compete in female competition won't work . I don't have the answer, but it definitely isn't pretending there is no issue.


    Maybe we need to move away from gendered competition to some extent, maybe insist on certain hormone levels at elite level rather than gender. But let's not pretend there's no issue that requires some new thinking.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If it's not the same why even bring doping into it?

    Because it refutes the entirely specious argument that they can't have an unfair advantage if they didn't win.

    Semenya and other intersex athletes are an incredibly complicated situation. I think mandating medicalisation is definitely not the correct way forward, but I am really not sure what is. However, it is of little relevance to this debate.

    Ultimately the gap between male and female sex performance in top end athletics is simply too large to have any fair cross competition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Trans man are trans man and trans woman are trans woman. Bizarre is something else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    The vast majority of transwomen—in excess of (a very conservative) 90%—do not undergo genital sex reassignment surgery, and are not required to in order to take part in sports. So it's a moot point.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    If that is indeed the case, it is a fair point. Having said that, I still don't know how many competitive men will switch to competing as female just for the warm glow of victory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Really? You can't see men who are not competitive in men's leagues but could be in women's leagues "transitioning" in order to gain an advantage? I'd agree there wouldn't be many, but there'd be enough to blast women's hard-won records out of the water in fairly short order. Particularly in the US, where sporting ability is often tied to college scholarships and so on.

    In any case, women are not simply men without penises. Participating in women's sports is not (and should not be) some reward that transwomen get for having a difficult surgery.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    I really can't. Given that it's possible today, and we don't see a whole lot (or any?) trans women sweeping all before them, I'm wondering if this is something of a storm in a teacup. The type of moral panic that will look ridiculous in 20 years, perhaps?



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    My hope and prediction is that there are a lot of current-year things that will look ridiculous in 20 years' time.

    In any case, I don't think "it won't happen often" is really a good reason to allow male people to compete with female people in sports (particularly at the elite level). It will happen, and women who would otherwise have had the opportunity to compete will be excluded.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Most would do a medical transition, including surgery, of some sort. HRT + orchidectomy would be standard enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'm not going on a full hog citation search because I'm heading to bed, but for starters this paper from the US has a range estimate of 5-13% surgery rate for transwomen.

    I don't think anyone is obliged to have cosmetic surgery, FWIW, but a LOT of people seem to be under the impression that transwomen have definitionally had their penis and testicles removed and a neovagina constructed, and that this is a requirement for everything from legally changing sex to playing sports, which is not even close to true.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I didn't say anything about full bottom surgery. I just wanted to clarify that most would undergo some level of medical transition and it's not easily simplified.

    It definitely not required. Some people are happy with this, some are not.



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