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Energy infrastructure

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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "Gas is only slightly less polluting than burning other stuff", "Most of our GHG emission reduction was caused by switching to Gas".

    So it's a good thing we switched the peat and coal burners (mostly) for gas? Good, you're on board so.

    "We're going to keep burning fuel when we need to". Yep, don't think anyone's disagreeing with that.

    As I've pointed out, we could put 40kWh of batteries in every residence in Ireland at current retail prices for what Hinkley Point C is going to cost the Brits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Have reactor prices come down a lot since last year?



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nope, because they'd be mostly used for stabilisation so will be tuned to rarely ever fully cycle. They could charge overnight (somewhere in Europe will be generating power) nice and cheap. It's about load balancing. This fear of the wind suddenly stopping really is odd. It's not even annually that it presents any kind of issue.

    As it happens the car manufacturers were conservative with their average battery estimates, and that's for extremely high-draw batteries. Domestic batteries used for load balancing and back-up storage would last several decades. And they don't need to be fully-rated anyway. 2nd hand ones could be put where they're suitable. For example I use less than 10kWh per day on average. So in 20 years a current 40kWh battery with half capacity left would still suit my usage.

    And again, at current retail prices, which you're ignoring. Given that adding another bunch of cells to a battery would be cheaper per unit, for higher users like yourself you could have the option for higher capacity.

    Grid storage long-term won't be Lithium batteries (unless an unexpected breakthrough is made). I unfortunately can't find an interesting article from a few months ago where they've used steel for batteries. Useless for consumer applications (too bulky) but looks like it could be a cheap option. There's a lot of battery advancements and discoveries still to be made. Materials that wouldn't have been seen as useful before due to e.g. bulkiness are being investigated and there's some really promising leads.

    And anyway, what will we do when our nuclear plant closes for 3 months for maintenance or cracks or whatever else went wrong during construction?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The hornsdale battery was built because the stupids built out a huge swag of wind turbines and solar, and a bloody great storm came along and multiple wind farms suddenly shut down, causing a surge in demand that blew out the interconnector to reliable coal power in Victoria, and the whole grid shut down for 12 hours, and several days for some. 850,000 homes lost power and the cost to businesses was estimated at $367 million.

    Banging on about savings from hornsdale is laughable.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Check here for Operational Constraints Week 2 of 2002 and we are still trialling 75% non-synch generation. The grid can't be supplied with 100% renewables, yet, so don't act surprised that we aren't meeting 2030 or 2050 targets today.


    Primary Operating Reserve has to be delivered within 5 seconds and maintained until 15 seconds. There's then three more levels of reserve 15s - 90s - 5 minutes - 20 minutes for other supplies to be engaged like hydro or thermal or interconnector or whatever or ramping up eg Turlough Hill can respond in 70 seconds.

    Batteries that last 2 hours are grand for this kind of stuff. There's also partially regulated reserve includes 45MW of demand shedding when Turlough Hill is pumping. And 50MW of DSU's (demand shedding). There's also 228MW of battery and 150MW of interconnector that can be adjusted.


    For month long storage look at green hydrogen in old gas fields. As I have to keep reminding you that's about 10 times current annual global lithium battery production. Battery capacity isn't an issue.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Why would you be charging your two PHEV cars when there is a shortage of wind?

    If we had smart meters, then the spot price of domestic electricity would make charging the PHEV uneconomic, plus would encourage shedding of load.

    I think you are applying today's use logic for an unknown future scenario, where many parameters will change utterly.

    Dealing with carbon credits changes the logic of consumption, as does carbon levies. We need to smarten up as for global warming with its profound effect on the earth we need to survive as a species. We should not fall for green washing that merely looks as if something is being done, but has a tiny irrelevant effect.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Again, the goal for 2030, is that we will generate about 80% of our electricity from renewables, mostly wind.

    Yes, in 2030, we will still have our existing natural gas power plants. Mostly we won't use them, there will be many days when we generate more then 100% of our electricity needs with wind, exporting the excess over the interconnectors or generating green hydrogen and filling storage.

    Of course there will be days like today, with little wind and as a result we will fire up the natural gas plants and of course import electricity over the interconnectors (more capacity then Hinkley Point C or roughly two Moneypoints in 2030) and generate power from hydro and storage and hydrogen, etc.

    As a result, over a year, the amount of gas we use will fall drastically. Our carbon intensity will drop from 296 gCO2/kWh today to around 100 gCO2/kWh by 2030. A fantastic improvement from the 800 gCO2/kWh we produced in 2005, a 8 fold drop in just 25 years!

    Then we will turn our attention to the next goal. To the 2050 goal, to get to net zero, to tackle that last 20%.

    This will likely require a variety of technologies. More interconnectors, green hydrogen, smart grid/demand shedding, ng + ccs, maybe SMR's, various storage technologies, like compressed air, pumped hydro etc. It won't happen overnight, it will take 20 years to do (the next 28 years). It likely won't be a single technology, rather a combination of technolgies working together to achieve the goal.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You don't get it, we're burning a bit of gas today so therefore it's all pointless. Or something.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    A - Where can you buy a 1.2GW reactor for $2.4Bn ?

    B - They're Australian dollars so it's only €1.52Bn = £1.27Bn that's close to £1/watt !

    If there are no more delays or increases then Hinkley C will cost nearly 7 times that per watt even when much of the cost is hidden in the insane strike price that'll be index linked for 35 years.


    Solar modules are below 30c US per watt and falling, assume a capacity factor of 24% and you are looking at close to £2/watt including backup ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,464 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The idea that we'll be generating green hydrogen with " excess" wind energy doesn't wash ... The electricity price would have to be at "new nuclear makes economic sense levels " to be producing hydrogen when we have a bit of spare electricity -

    And actually I think the whole hydrogen for electricity thing is into new nuclear levels of pricing anyway - the inefficencies are pretty huge -

    Grid level storage is always going to be for a few hours - and that's all that's needed - that gives time to ramp up gas generators... Even if there were multiple turlough hill sized pumped storage facilities that'd still just be hours of storage ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The opposite surely? Nuclear makes sense when prices are super high, excess wind to hydrogen makes sense when prices are low and no-one wants/needs the excess.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well the current plans for offshore wind will be producing FAR in excess of what we would consume or export so they are getting the ducks in a row with green hydrogen in mind as the major consumer of excess energy.

    To give an example, what's planned for the west coast is 6GW of turbines. That's what we use now.

    Add in current production plus the planned installations off the East and South coasts and we'll have more power than we know what to do with. That doesn't include the planned additional turbines on land plus the solar farms being developed. Obviously there will be a decrease when some of the gas plants get shutdown but most will likely be converted over to hydrogen.

    This abundance of renewable energy has to be built to provide a buffer for calm days. On other days we'll have to consume it or lose it



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Bord na Mona are moving ahead, at a rapid pace, into full-on energy generation.




  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's also worth remembering that what we've managed so far (and anything that's in advanced planning) is using a huge amount of basic technology and methods. The big batteries seem to mostly use 21700 batteries, just a size up from the 18650s that millions of people use to vape (and some fairly niche devices use 21700). The good thing is that electricity is electricity (just set the current and volts) so even if steel batteries become a thing you just hook them up and leave the old ones running until they're unviable.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The death of coal as a power source in the US is gaining momentum

    Operators have scheduled 14.9 gigawatts (GW) of electric generating capacity to retire in the United States during 2022, according to our latest inventory of electric generators. The majority of the scheduled retirements are coal-fired power plants (85%), followed by natural gas (8%) and nuclear (5%).




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,464 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    That's not excess wind to hydrogen- that's dedicated off-shore wind to hydrogen - combining 2 emerging (and expensive)) technologies .and probably going to have to stick a bloody big battery in there too as a buffer...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,049 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Wind and solar are painfully unreliable, and will need to be backed up with storage of some form.

    Hydrogen turbines sound fine - but have the state actually confirmed this is the long term approach? Have they began to invest in them?

    Hydro is good but not for Ireland, aside from 2 or 3 major sites, the rest are unviable in the most part. Also keep in mind the damage damming rivers or flooding valleys does ecologically - it definitely has a footprint.

    Interconnectors, lol. Being reliant on others for power at short notice is a bad strategy, leaves us at the mercy of sudden price hikes - we will often find ourselves competing for an ever smaller piece of the pie, as more of Europe moves to wind and solar too.

    The weather systems that leave renewables not generating here in Ireland often affect most of western europe at the same time, so interconnectors are not a panacea either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭gjim


    "Interconnectors, lol. Being reliant on others for power at short notice is a bad strategy, leaves us at the mercy of sudden price hikes"

    How is importing electricity is a bad strategy?

    It's a lot better than importing coal, gas and oil, which is what's happening now on a huge scale. And as globally traded commodities they also have volatile prices driven by the actions of large global players. And they are in no way more secure - look at the rolling blackouts experienced last year in China because of their mis-timed reliance on coal for electricity - nothing like that has happened in Europe despite the massive shift to renewables and long periods of unfavourable weather.

    Interconnectors are two-way. With electricity, Ireland is excellently placed to also export energy to offset flows in the other direction - like Scotland has done to remarkable success and now earns significant income as a net exporter of mostly wind electricity.

    That's never going to happen for Ireland with fossil fuels - you're always buying and often from fairly unsavoury countries. Buying and selling electricity to neighbours like the UK, France and the rest of the EU is a lot more secure and morally defensible than handing over 5B a year to fund the global fossil-fuel energy sector.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    We already export twice as much electricity over the interconnector to the UK as we import over it. It makes money for us.

    As we greatly increase wind power and build the two new interconnectors (UK and France), we will likely see that 2:1 ratio increase significantly. We will export even more wind power and make more money from it. Today we are a very large net importer of energy, interconnectors + wind help us decrease that.

    I don't get peoples negativity about interconnectors. Every country in mainland Europe has massive amounts of interconnectors to all their neighbours and are all part of the EU wide synchronous grid, the largest in the world.

    Ireland is very much the odd man out in terms of interconnectors.

    "Hydrogen turbines sound fine - but have the state actually confirmed this is the long term approach? Have they began to invest in them?"

    Currently the focus is on our 2030 goals (80% renewables) and that is where government policy is currently focused. The focus of this policy seems to be mostly a combination of more onshore and offshore wind (mostly East coast), along with some small solar, battery, etc. projects, largely backed up by Natural Gas + Interconnectors.

    Beyond that you have the 2050 goal of net zero. While the goal is clear, exactly which technologies will be used to achieve it aren't set out by government policy yet. And rightfully so, 28 years is a very long time in technology and it is far too early to place firm bets.

    Most likely it will look something like, lots of Wind (onshore + offshore) backed up by X. Where X will likely be some a combination of hydrogen, CCS, batteries of different chemistries, liquid air storage, interconnectors.

    The balance of the above technologies will come down to cost, which are the cheapest. They all work, the question is which will be the cheapest and best to partner with very cheap wind.

    Of course, the above is just focused on government policy. We are starting to see companies around Europe starting to build offshore wind farms to generate green hydrogen on a purely commercial basis with no government support and little or no grid connection. As in wind has become so cheap, it is looking profitable for companies to use it to generate hydrogen to sell to governments and industry for power generation, transport, etc.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Ireland has some natural advantages. Grass fed beef is one, and wind energy is another. We do not have an advantage for solar, but it should not be ruled out - particularly if it gets cheap enough and for summer generation.

    We will never be able to accommodate a nuclear energy market here because in Ireland there is too small a base demand for energy. Now, if you include the lack of enthusiasm for it, and the extreme difficulty of finding a location for a reactor, then nuclear can be ruled out.

    Hydrogen - well, the technology has a bit to go, and prices are not set. It could be a useful tool in the box - as could biogas. I understand our grass fed beef produce a bit of biogas.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Is there much point encouraging solar on a large scale in Ireland? The only business case I can think of is if the summer months were also the least windy and solar could take up the slack instead of having to increase grid storage capacity. Assuming the national picture is similar to Dublin, then there may be an opportunity for solar, https://weatherspark.com/y/33845/Average-Weather-in-Dublin-Ireland-Year-Round but those months also correspond with a reduction in consumption https://www.seai.ie/data-and-insights/seai-statistics/monthly-energy-data/electricity/



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not so much, but as it gets cheaper if it can compete then it's another option.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I guess if it makes sense to invest in then there has to be a net positive return for that investment.

    Obviously the payback period will be longer than other climates but profit is profit at the end of the day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭gjim


    Solar definitely has a place. Lots of northern European countries - Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. have substantial PV capacity and are planning more.

    The capacity factor may be low, but the extreme cheapness of the panels and relatively simple installation and maintenance means it's still competitive. It has a very attractive property in that it lowers the overall variability supply from renewables as its correlation with wind is low. And it pairs very well with li-ion storage which can be built on-site reducing the burden on the transmission system.

    If all the winners for solar in RESS-1 delivery, there should be nearly 1GW of installed capacity in Ireland. It will grow to provide a considerable proportion of the renewables mix - inevitable given its price trajectory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭medoc



    Planning decision due soon on allowing BNM’s Edenderry Power station to stay in operation on 100% Biomass after the end of its Co-Fueling with peat next year.





  • Registered Users Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Interesting about Germany, I thought it was mainly located in the south (anecdotal) but there's still quite a bit of PV generated between 51N and 53N, the equivalent of Cork to Dublin.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-PV-power-generated-across-Germany-The-unit-is-power-in-Watts-produced_fig5_330898589



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    By your logic nuclear shouldn't be built here either because of the list of catastrophes it's had

    Pick any energy source and there are issues which is why redundancy is built into the system



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Just as well we have that big uranium mine up in Monaghan then to be self sufficient.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How you manage to reconcile these risks is honestly entertaining



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    She is way down the list, only 4% of the Party membership would consider her. Rabb is also on 4% and also committed a similar gaff with the Dover thing. Both shot themselves in the foot by being ignorant of common knowledge.

    We get our gas from Norway and the North Sea via Scotland, not Russia and it's already been pointed out that the Germans are delaying a new pipeline.

    The unreliability of UK and French nuclear power is what has peaked gas prices at present. Given that Hinkley C won't be fully operational before 2027 ( Sizewell C would be even later and the other four planned plants aren't on the Horizon) there's plenty of scope to do what Scotland does and export oodles of power to GB.

    France is reducing nuclear down to 50% in favour of renewables so scope to export to there too.


    As for burning down, it happens all too often with the transformers at nuclear power station.

    On the other hand if you aren't using interconnectors or importing energy , how do you plan to load balance nuclear as it's not something you can ignore and if you suggest storage then that makes renewables less intermittent and reduces the carbon footprint of fossil peaking plant.



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