The 2022 Sub3 thread

ThePiedPiper · 13-01-2022 2:26pm

Limerick and Cork are way easier courses for sub3 attempts than Belfast. I found Belfast a dog of a course with the late hills killing momentum. My adjusted time was 3:00 or 3:01, wasn’t a happy boy that day.

In a choice between Cork or Limerick, I think Cork is a nicer race. There’s some lovely sections along the Lee, on a path for a few miles I think, that are really enjoyable. The atmosphere at the finish is good. Limerick is ok, bit of a slog by the Gaelic grounds, I just can’t recall anything overly scenic or special.

squinn2912 · 13-01-2022 3:23pm

I know someone who got their time adjusted a second time which made the difference for the sub3. I didn’t look into it for me as I thought what’s the point? The adjusted time took me to PB but it was still a but sour 3-4 days after. I went mad at one of the officials at the end over it. I had been thinking all along that they could well have pulled the finish line back a short distance but I guess at that stage they didn’t know the extent of their mistake. You couldn’t make it up though after all the heartache over having it on a Sunday as well.

I’m starting to become more and more attracted to a go at Cork. Would give me another few weeks of base training to shake off these niggles as well. Wouldn’t care too much about scenery I’ll not even be looking at that.

Swashbuckler · 13-01-2022 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467362#Comment_118467362

Yeah I'd agree with that. The parts through Limerick city are good but they are short lived. The section out by UL is just meh. The canal from UL back into town is nice. Raheen is meh - housing estates. The North circular road and ennis road for me are the same again - nothing of note. I especially dont like North Circular road. Maybe thats partly due to the fact I do much training on there. That being said, its my hometown marathon and probably top 5 marathons in the country? So its a no brainer for my first marathon. Actually that brings an interesting question to mind. The best marathons in the country. Presumably Dublin is tops. Dingle? Connemara? Cork? Galway? Are there better ones?

shotgunmcos · 13-01-2022 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468054#Comment_118468054

Connemara is beautiful. Rolling hills for 20 miles, then a winding 2 mile hill from 22-24. Bagged a top 10 there with a 3:00:21 10 years ago. Its not a PB course by any stretch but its just so remote and scenic.

babacool · 13-01-2022 4:31pm

Uuuuhhhh Connemara is great. So many good and even more bad (yet good) memories from this race (I even like that they specifically comment on 2016 on their webpage with regards to weather which was the year I did it 😂).

it is definitely a big challenge to get a sub3 there and probably a different lead up to this race than a flat marathon.

havent read the entire thread yet but what is your experience when it comes to marathons so far? Weekly mileage etc?

having broken sub3 just a year after a massive injury (caused by two failed attempts at sub3 by getting things wrong) and now be able to run a sub3 during a steady long run if I want to (no this is not to show off) my take on sub3 is “if I can do it, anyone can do it”. It just depends on the right mindset and the willingness to put in the effort. Im happy to share experience and personal “wisdom” if desired. Just ask me any question (for those who know me: im not a coach!!! But learned a lot from the right coaching over the past 3 years and are more than happy to pass on anything I can.)

ThePiedPiper · 13-01-2022 5:59pm

Despite never actually running well in DCM, I still reckon it’s the best marathon in Ireland for the majority of runners. With big pace groups, support and gels, energy drinks, etc, it is as good as any mid-level international marathon.

For scenery and solitude, nothing comes close to how much I love Monaghan, but forget about trying to run a fast time. Connemara is beautiful, but the 2016 experience in the Ultra very nearly broke me and took a couple of years to get over. Sub3 group in Connemara will be tiny, maybe 10 runners overall under 3 hours, so mentally it’ll be tough.

babacool · 13-01-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468978#Comment_118468978

Oh yea. 2016 was brutal! On target for sub3 until the hailstorm hit us (or was it hard rain can’t even remember what it was) and then just happy to “survive” and finish in 3:21 or so. Best experience ever though!

the good thing with hilly marathons is though (at least for me) I find them easier to get a great time as I’m always extremely mindful of the course and hence pace myself accordingly. With any flat race usually tend to go out too hard thinking I have to hit even splits as it is flat! Hence for any distance (except 10miler) so far my best results come from “rolling hills”.

shotgunmcos · 13-01-2022 6:14pm

For a sub3 pace group, you dont necessarily need to attach yourself to the pacer. A mate and I basically ran 10 miles just behind the group in Limerick then slowly reeled it in as runners splintered away from it. By 20 miles it was a group of <10 and with 3-4 miles to go people were either making a break for it or falling off. It was pretty calming actually to sit back from the group for 10 miles, join it for 10-12 miles getting pulled along, then let it go to bag a negative split. I remember feeling glad for the pacer from miles 20-23.

Theres a sub3 group in Connemara?! Do they run even splits?

babacool · 13-01-2022 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469060#Comment_118469060

Back in 2016 it’s been 5-8 runners attempting it. Think 1 got close to it and everyone else dropped off.

my point on pacers is, if you don’t know them make sure you talk to them first before deciding to stick with them. Just to make sure they approach the race suiting your needs. But generally I agree especially for races like dcm. Go out 10-15sec per k slower than your target pace and pick it up after 10miles. It’s not an even or positive split course!

connemara I would guess is more a positive split just not sure how much faster the first half should be in order to not get destroyed before the 2nd half

ThePiedPiper · 13-01-2022 7:43pm

There’s no pacers in Conn, just hoping that an informal group could form. First half should be maybe 1:27, lose a minute up the hill at 13 miles, regain it before Maam, then probably lose two minutes on Maam-Maam Cross. Easier said than done, I ran a 16 minute positive split in 2007!!

shotgunmcos · 13-01-2022 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469502#Comment_118469502

I did 1:27/1:33 in 2011. Agree about a 6min positive or thereabouts

babacool · 13-01-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469502#Comment_118469502

Well, there are pacers but not for sub3. Think it’s hard to find someone pacing that time there 😁.

6min split sounds about right to me. Then again, weather is unpredictable and could have a massive impact too!

what about the ultra? Would you go out fast the first 13mile (faster than normal ultra) or in that case for a negative split knowing what comes at to end and to ensure that you need something left in your legs? It’s still on my bucket list to someday do it aiming for 4:30hrs overall (or slightly faster).

longrunn · 14-01-2022 1:35pm

I'll be doing my first marathon in Cork this year. I think I'll be somewhere in around 3:10 to 3:15 but sub-3 is a goal for a future race. Has anybody done something similar, gone from 3:15 to sub-3 and how long did it take between races?

ThePiedPiper · 14-01-2022 2:27pm

Longrunn, I went from 3:12 in DCM 2007 to 3:00 in April 2008. It was a decent jump on paper, but in reality, the 3:12 was a failed, ridiculously optimistic effort at sub3. You’re probably right in being patient, there’s nothing more disheartening than losing 10 minutes in the last 10 miles of a marathon. On the other hand, staying patient and controlled in a race and picking it up in the last 10k is a fantastic feeling.

babacool · 14-01-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473723#Comment_118473723

I went from 3:46 in 2014 (DCM) to 3:35 (DCM) in 2015, 3:21 (Connemara) and 3:01 in 2016 (DCM), 2:47 (DCM) in 2018 and 2:39 in 2019 (DCM). All those "jumps" were easy enough and the 3:01 wasn't really planned. I trained for a 3:10, hoping for 3:05. Problem came after. I assumed the progress will continue and I just need to do more and faster and started to do silly workouts, too fast too often and had a setback in 2017 aiming for 2:55 but finishing in 3:03 on a very flat course in Germany. That plus an injury had me change my entire view on training, nutrition etc as i realized though i might have gotten somewhere with what I did but to get to the next level (which was Sub3) things need to change. The first thing was: find a coach you trust and understands you as an athlete and not just tries to fit you into his/her training roster. Then get away from "i need to run sub3 and in order to get there I need to have a subx 5k, 10k etc". Just trust your coach and enjoy your journey. :)

duffyshuffle · 14-01-2022 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468419#Comment_118468419

Go on then, besides finding a coach and trusting the plan, what did you do around training/weekly mileage/types of sessions/nutrition that helped your improvements?

babacool · 14-01-2022 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475034#Comment_118475034

keep it simple. Running isn’t rocket science. You don’t require fancy sessions to improve. Always remember: most of us are not elite runners. We don’t have 20hrs of supervised training where every step is monitored.
keep the weekly mileage steady. Never increase mileage and pace/intensity at the same time. Either/or but never both.
get a good feel for calories burnt/calories eaten. We burn a lot calories during a run then we think.

with that in mind:

nutrition:

before the injury I had roughly 82kg on me at a height of 184cm. After the injury (next marathon) my weight was down to 72kg. Most of that weight loss came from logging food/counting calories for a while. Just to get a good feel for what is part of a meal, how much can I eat/drink etc. if you really think about it, it is very simple. When you are in marathon training you don’t need pizza, chocolate, alcohol etc. eat your greens, your chicken (yes even with a nice crispy skin), eat your lean beef. Stay away from pork and processed meat.

a normal day looked like this:

breakfast: 2 biscuits of weetabix, scoop of diet whey powder, 1 banana, 1 kiwi and almond milk.

1st snack - 1 protein bar

lunch: 100gr of oats with 100gr of blueberries and a scoop of diet whey powder

2nd snack - 1 apple and 2 carrots

dinner - a big salat with chicken, kale, spinach

Snack 3 - 25gr of nuts or some unsalted popcorn. No food 3hrs before bedtime.

long runs always on empty regardless if easy or as part of a session. No food at least 4hrs prior to a session and never more than 300kcal the last meal before it.

main aim for the day was to ensure that carbs, protein, all needed vitamins and fats were covered and total calorie count was never more than I burnt as per Garmin.

Did that for about 4 months if I remember correctly. i don’t log Food and count calories anymore though. By now I know what I can and can’t eat and the weight remains consistent (went up to 77kg again at some stage but managed to keep it around 74-77kg for the past 4 years now without having to starve).

Weekly mileage:

We need to remember that marathon training doesn’t start 10 weeks out. For me it starts 6months out. The mindset changes from getting great times in shorter races to let’s get the base right. I consider myself as an endurance runner. Im not fast but I can hold a good pace for a very long time! So in my case a lot comes from volume.

at the start of a build up my weekly mileage is around 90-110km a week. 2 workouts and a “long run”. 3 months out I usually bring up the volume to around 115-125km (normally going by a 4 week block with then adding a recovery week by reducing the volume by 10-15% and have a TT or race in there if fits). During the 8 weeks of intense marathon specific training my weekly volume will now go up to 145-165km per week for about 4-6 weeks and depending on what the coach says of course. In the past that would include 1 workout and 1 long run with a workout included but the odd week with 2 workouts and an easy long runs.

sessions:

From what I have learned is that you should have one key session and one that supports the key session. Train on fatigue legs and slower paces have the same benefit as training on well rested legs but faster paces. It just means less risk of injuries (ie pulling the hamstring).

my favourite sessions during the marathon block are sessions like 3*(4-3-2-1min) with 90sec recovery jog between reps and 4min between sets. Pace would be at 10mile to HMP. Or pace alternations: 10-5-10min tempo runs. 10min @ 5sec slower than MP and the 5min at MP or monster sessions like 4*9k progression run and Canova style workouts. Hill reps at the right time are brilliant too and add speed to your legs without overstretching anything.

main thing had and still is that it is down to effort and not really pace. I train a lot on hilly routes. If I would be stuck on “I need to hit a 4:00min pace regardless” on an incline it would break me. I’d rather slow down to 4:10 on that rep but get the right result.

big thing is having the right race at the right time. Start with a 5k 3-4month out. Then a 10k, 10miler, HM every few weeks to finish a block. Just to see that you are on pace and you are working at the right effort.

i could go on and on now and write down every single thing I did but that would be an entire blog that I don’t have (apart from my training record on strava and food logs on MyFitnessPal).

Hence, what exactly is your question? What exactly are you struggling with? What is that you think you can/should improve on?

As said, happy to share my experiences yet in order to be helpful for you (however way you would take my feedback) I need a bit more on what you are looking for otherwise as you can see from the above my mind jumps from one thing to another and may come across unstructured and unhelpful. 😁

squinn2912 · 14-01-2022 5:25pm

Wow @babacool lovin your contributions here!! It’s like a look into the future! Would you talk about your S&C routine? I presume you trained 7 days for mileage like that if not some double days? I don’t think that’s an option for me as I can’t see my body taking it. TIA

duffyshuffle · 14-01-2022 5:36pm

No that’s a great summary thanks for posting that, hard to argue with any of it and lots to take from lots of it

babacool · 14-01-2022 5:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475465#Comment_118475465

Ha… S&C - that’s a good one! 😁

I haven’t stretched in years. I don’t do Yoga, pilates etc.
s&c is part of the pre build up phase but probably a lot less than other would suggest. I would do 1 session per week over a period of 4-6 weeks and then stop. Not because it’s ok but mostly because I’m human and start forgetting about it until the body says “listen, here is a little warning. Do your stuff again or I will stop you from running”. It’s just important to know those trigger points so that the little niggle doesn’t turn into a bigger injury/setback. A normal session would be as prescribed by the coach back then:

Explosive

1) Squat Jumps 12kg x2- 3 sets of 12 (120 sec recovery) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTO2qWRy9U

2:30min in between

2) Squat box Jump 10kg x2- 3 sets of 10 (90sec rec) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPO-OMCpnCU

5min in between

Strength

Barbell Squat - 4x5 reps 20kg each side (120sec rec)

2min in between

Conditioning

Box pistol Squats - 3x10 (each leg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc4YfSHjbYE

2 * 40 speed single leg calve raises

the only thing I really keep up and do at least once a week are Nordic curls. No more than 4 reps but on a constant basis. I found that since I do those and keep them doing I have no more issues with hamstrings, glutes etc.

also basically to compensate for a lack of specific S&c sessions (after those few weeks) I use every opportunity during the day to do something. When preparing food I do a few calve raises, when brushing my teeth I add some squats, when putting the little one to sleep do 1*60sec plank whilst waiting for him to have brushed his teeth and so on. Break it up, add a bit of fun to it. As long as you do something, that’s definitely more than not doing anything at all.

with regards to mileage. Yes, a 140+ week is based on 7 days of running and includes at least 2 days with doubles. But that’s just down to time as it is sometimes easier to have 2 runs rather than 1. If you commute obviously try to combine that with running. If you don’t want the impact on your family use your lunch break. The way how I see it is that I have to sacrifice my break and my commute and not the family their time with me (unless they say “please go for a run!!! Which happens more often than you think 😂).

now can your body “take it”. Sure it can if the basics are done. A few years ago I thought I will never be able to run 14 days straight. Well, last year I ran for 5 or 6months straight. Anything is possible if you give your body time to adjust and adopt. Just remember don’t increase pace and volume. Slow down a bit and you will see your recover quicker and can go for another run. With regards to consecutive days, don’t count the days but go by weeks. I often felt fatigue on a Sunday evening thinking “rest day tomorrow” and then Monday came and I was like “well, a new week a new start. Let’s go again” and the legs felt fine.

with regards to doubles start simple. Take a day that you would normally do 12k. Break this up. 7k in the morning and 5-6k in the evening (give yourself at least 5hrs between both runs). Make sure both runs are on the slower end and shouldn’t involve any workout. After you got used to doing doubles increase volume. 8k in the morning 6k in the evening and you are now doing 14k on a day you would normally do 12k and feel the same level of fatigue.

one more thing on sessions/long runs. Best thing my coach taught me back then was to have a nice long run the day after a workout. Slow down on that run but do your distance/time. This is a strength builder. An easy run or Rest day doesn’t give the same benefit.

babacool · 14-01-2022 7:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475529#Comment_118475529

there isn’t really ever anything to argue with. Everyone follows what he/she believes works best (at least I would hope so 😁).

the only advice I would give with regard to a coach is to be picky! Check what his/her vision is. How training is approached. See if you can find a couple of runners who are following that coaches orders and see what the sessions are like. Rule of thumb for me is, if everyone does the same set of session at always the same time of the plan then it isn’t the right coach for me as he/she just basically has (as said) a set of sessions and will fit you in. If everyone is doing different things even if they are training for the same race and are at a similar level of fitness etc then that’s the right coach for you. That one will look at the right session that suits you and wants you to improve and not just “marketing” his training.

Swashbuckler · 14-01-2022 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476078#Comment_118476078

Obvious next question is who is your current coach?

babacool · 14-01-2022 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476177#Comment_118476177

kevin English - similar enough philosophy to Luke which is exactly what works for me. Sametime a new stimulus to get to the next level. Same applies to this thread here. It’s never a good idea to just continue with what you do. Always look at what others do. Don’t just try to copy it (did that myself which also contributed to the body breaking down) but try to understand it first. Why? How? When? And most importantly when not?! Learn from mistakes others did more so then from what worked for them. 🙂

babacool · 14-01-2022 7:51pm

By the way, topic nutrition and session. Have a heavy weekend ahead of me. Saturday: 3k warm up - 16k @ 3:45-3:50 - warm down (3-5k). Sunday: 38k at moderate effort (4:05-4:20 per k - depending on how the legs will feel).

to get fuelled for that I decided on heaving a nice, heavy dinner today: 1 big sweet potato sliced up, fried in pan for 10min (using butter and olive oil) and then in the oven topped up with about 50-75gr mozzarella for about 15min. On to the plate without 2 fried eggs and a side salat (100gr grated carrots, handful of spinach and some honey melon). No clue what the total calorie of that is but everything is covered: carbs, protein, fat, vitamins and minerals. I’m full now. Let’s see how much energy I’ll have in the morning 😂

healy1835 · 16-01-2022 7:03pm

@babacool it's only dawning on me who you are in the real world now! Welcome to Boards 😁

Helpfullgirl · 16-01-2022 7:40pm

I am glad there are so many people helping each other here, I am still trying to find some videos to help me but i see if i need help i can ask here if i find a video that will help me i will post it here for everyone to see

babacool · 16-01-2022 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485609#Comment_118485609

What gave me a way? Strava? 😂

16-01-2022 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464734#Comment_118464734

Circa 2.47 in belfast that year (2.45 when they took the 2 minutes off to bring you back to 26.2).

Entered belfast there for 2022.

Time for a new pb (2.39 current pb - 2.58 first marathon-2.39 second marathon 12months later) with these new cheat boots everyone wears now.

Wife got me a pair of nike next % for xmas.

Never got into these shoes as i thought it was too much €€€ for a pair of shoes and against my principles.

Prices have come down alot, everyone is wearing them now and the juices are ready for another assault at the marathon.

Hopefully course and organisation is improved from the last 2 years.

💪💪💪.

Swashbuckler · 16-01-2022 10:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486188#Comment_118486188

That's some jump from your first to your second marathon and more than just new shoes. What were the big changes you made?

16-01-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486675#Comment_118486675

No cheat shoes then.

Over 5 years ago.

1 stone weight loss.

Consistent 100 km a week for alot of that 12 months.

Prior injuries meant i would breakdown alot if i went over that milegae.

Reduced pbs for all lower races 5k, 10k, 10 mile etc.

Very disciplined in race.

Splits were within seconds of each other 1st half/second half.

Enjoyed the journey, great 12 months.

The 2022 Sub3 thread

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