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Overpopulation

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Wrong, the footprint of an avocado pales in comparison to that of beef and dairy. Have a read of this and look at the graph.


    dont forget, 90% of our beef and dairy is exported, so add on the food miles to that too.

    Anyway this has been done to death, farmers just deny deny deny.

    Obviously we are all guilty of polluting but ag is by far Ireland's biggest polluter and there's no way of greenwashing it. We need to produce and consume less beef and dairy worldwide, it takes up too much land.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,580 ✭✭✭Tow


    The chart puts the greenhouse gas of Milk far below (<10%) the level of Beef. I don't see were the big difference comes from.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,075 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    These studies are meta analyses of further studies which take a sample of commercial farms all over the world and pop out an average figure of Kg CO2 per KG feed. Don't be surprised if theyre skewed largely by different farming practices in different countries & climates.

    To know the true impact of Irish farming would take an Irish specific (or european wide equivalent) study of similar farming practices and their impact. US/Brazilian beef & dairy is a million miles away from Irish industry



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Ireland's impact on global warming and overpopulation is negligible compared to our various neighbors like France and England. Planting trees sounds great, but won't make a difference, eat all the beef you want and fly as many plane flights as possible. The global warming horse has long since left the barn. If you want to improve lives, don't have kids, so they don't suffer in the upcoming climate-crisis world.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda





    Not a great chart tbf. One of the main problems with it and carbon emissions - is that it is a globalised figure from a sample of "selected" farms.

    As an globalised figure it also includes huge amounts of carbon emissions for feed lot beef production in the US and deforestation in Brazil.

    So the chart does not provide even a halfway realistic picture for say comparing beef or milk production here or the UK vs Brazil or America. Relying on this chart would be like trying to say that all vehicles produce the same amount of emissions - they don't.

    This is true especially of those countries whose agricultural systems mainly rely on grassland. Which strangely enough receives no bonus points for carbon sequestration in that graph either. 🤔

    Post edited by gozunda on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I don't know, to each their own but I would rather live in hell than never live at all. Maybe not actual hell but there will always be somethings to look forward to. Even if I lived in a bunker licking slime off rocks, there would always be the hope of that extra slimey rock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    But, do you want your kids and grandkids scrabbling over the best rocks and the tastiest slime?

    Every child born (at least in the west) since about 1960 has been a choice. No different now even in Ireland. So, what kind of world do you think the child will have if you chose to inflict it on them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Trouble is the single biggest contributions of greenhouse gas emissions globally (approx 70%) come from the current use of fossil fuels in energy generation, transportation and manufacturing.

    https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector

    Turn all that off in one go and we will certainly be licking slime of rocks in caves 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Cement isn't far behind: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46455844. About 8%/per year global CO2 emissions come from cement production.


    Like, for all those houses that'll be needed if population is allowed to continue to grow unchecked. But hey, if we're back in caves, cement won't matter much.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Yes, better than never existing. Quality of life will decline severely but people survived times like the dark age, perhaps though this one will last for a millenium. Humans will survive, we are adaptable, like rats. Obviously I would rather this not happen but unfortunately we are not collectively rational like computers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    So, a miserable life is better than not existing. On that we'll have to disagree.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


     If you want to improve lives, don't have kids, so they don't suffer in the upcoming climate-crisis world.

    The greatest chance of anyone finding a range of solutions to the climate crisis will most likely come from a developed nation (due to higher standards of education, and funding/investment). So, have kids, and maybe they'll fix the problems that our and past generations have managed bring about.

    Still, I agree with eating all the beef you want or do as much flying that you want... after living in China, I've come to realise just how little impact a few million people in Ireland have compared to the behavior of populations in developing nations (which is highly unlikely to change).

    If you want to improve lives, contribute towards a better future... have kids.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    That time's passed. We're in a CO2 feedback cycle of ocean warming. There are plenty of people to find "solutions", actually, mitigations to the problems caused by overpopulation. Adding people to the planet only makes it worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,075 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    A giant depopulation event is the only thing that will really make a difference to be honest.

    Even education could not reduce birthrates enough to significantly reduce the population in the next 100 years. No amount of westerners eating synthetic meat or cycling to work would reduce the climate impacts of overpopulation enough.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    haha.,.. you say the time has passed, and yet, make the case for making it worse? Seriously?

    People are not going to stop having kids in less-developed or developed nations... as populations drop in the west, foreign groups will come here, and adopt the same practices that westerners have been doing.

    Having less kids in developed nations changes nothing, except to make the west weaker to foreign influence... and generally speaking western nations represent the best opportunities for equality, fairness, etc.. so, having less children here means an end to all that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    People will stop having kids when it becomes too expensive or not worth it enough to have them. This is why I've advocated for a world-wide 1 child policy. Everyone needs to participate else no one will. And again, this is a mitigation; it is getting worse with no end in sight, the oceans are the largest CO2 repositories on the planet and they overloaded, hence the temperature changes in the oceans, more severe weather events as a result and, extra credit, sea level rise.

    I'm recommending enjoying what life we have left and not adding people to the planet. It's badly overpopulated, adding people to it is just plain cruel to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,528 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Most African cultures place great importance on having multiple children, in having large families. That's not going to change..I honestly can't see any people accepting the idea of a one child policy. Not going to happen except in sci-fi movies.

    I get your points, but I don't agree. Western nations should be encouraging population growth within their own areas. Stop supporting developing nations or poor nations, and let them figure out what population works for them... and if they continue to have large families, they'll eventually learn not to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Stop with the racism. "Most African cultures" yadda dadda. And a liberal dose of 'we need more westerners.' If everyone agrees to 1 child, there's less misery to go around. You're missing my point - at the CO2 levels today, at the population levels today, we're in for it, horrible weather, droughts, wildfires, floods, rising oceans and massive starvation and migration. All we can do is mitigate for the future residents by not creating too many of them.


    Or, ride bikes, drive electric cars, install solar panels and watch the world burn till we burn too. Your choice.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Won't be a problem - more serious plagues like Covid, where too many humans got near too many animals and something jumped, will reduce population. Plus, why worry about pensions when there won't be enough food or water?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's not racism. It's not even culturalism... It is a fact that many African cultures place great importance on having large families. Care to disprove that claim? Nope? Better to jump up and down screaming racism so that you don't have to deal with opinions that differ to your own.

    Nobody is going to agree with a one child policy. It didn't work in China, and just reinforced the corruption within that society. Any real belief that it would be handled any better everywhere else?

    My choice? Then, I'll go with maintaining the population levels in Western nations, also maintaining a strong economic system, capable of determining, and providing the resources needed to implement possible solutions. Western nations having less children is not going to help anything, except to decrease the means available to react to the changing environment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    It's not specifically an African phenomenon. Any population transforming from an agrarian to an industrial society has seen the same population explosion. The faster that poorer parts of Africa progress from subsistence living to supporting a large middle class, the faster the population will stabalise. We are also wrong to rope all of Africa in together, countries like Egypt and South Africa are pretty advanced in comparison to the Congo or Uganda for example.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't say that it was specifically an African phenomenon. I used Africa as a reference to that cultural norm/belief of wanting large families.

    As for the rest, I don't see how it relates to what I wrote previously... and while certain countries, or rather certain cities are pretty advanced, their suburbs and the rural areas definitely aren't. There's a seriously wide gap between a developed nation and African nations, so pretty advanced is not comparable to pretty advanced in a developed nation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,838 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    You are taking data that doesn't apply to Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,838 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    This is a weird "final solution" view of the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,838 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The civil survey of Ireland in 1656 had wood covering 2% of the country.


    Down from 12% fifty years earlier and that was 60 years after Henry's forest act and Elizabeth's pronouncement that the Irish would not be beat while a leaf on a tree gave them hiding.


    Do you get your history from the BNP?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,229 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    I am not at all optimistic about "AI" or Eric Schmidt for that matter. Don't forget he is a billionaire who lives a lavish lifestyle like the rest of his tech billionaire buddies.

    The way these tech companies are pushing things is that the general population gets ever more marginalised. This has been going on for years

    *Sell up your farm - let the local corporate farm run it with their fleet of robots

    *Hand in your shotgun - you don't need it anymore

    *Don't own a car - summon a robo taxi with an app instead

    *Don't own a house - live in a modern albeit small high density apartment paid for by your Universal Basic Income

    *Bored? Plug yourself into the metaverse, indulge in a fantasy life made of pixels

    *Be tracked wherever you go and be placated constant stream of misinformation through your phone


    If people actually buy into the life mentioned above, I don't think many of them will feel the need to reproduce. I don't think the robot-owning upper class and the likes of Mr. Schmidt are going to give up their superyachts because everyone else has surrendered to the above lifestyle. In fact it will only free up resources for them to swoop in and gobble up.

    I think we are already being codded by these tech companies in a major way - phones, cars and even houses take less human labour to build than ever before yet their prices have never been higher. A lot of the money ends up with tech companies and parasitic middlemen like Amazon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    So you've proved my point, most of it was gone already, people had been clearing lands for millenia before the Brits did



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,838 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    How does that make your point.

    Nearly all of South Wicklow alone was under wood in 1580. The vast clearance alone of the 1640s wiped out 2 wood land bird species from Ireland.


    I get it you are waving the Jack hard but the evidence of recorded woods is substantial here and when they were felled and why.



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