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Energy infrastructure

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The image of nuclear power went down hill after the fire at Windscale in 1957. The dog in the manger attitude of the UK to our complaints about nuclear power hasn't helped either.

    Well there was that tsunami in 1607 And we are seeing more floods and dry spells than in the past. And more jellyfish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    What do they class as bio mass, wood chips from Oklahoma or somewhere kind of goes against the spirit of the thing. Also Farmers will inevitable end up growing stuff to burn not to eat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Gas prices have not risen because of the unreliabilty of nuclear, which is the most reliable energy source. They have risen because of a host of factors, none of which are because of your neuron meltdown causing nuclear trigger.

    "Europe’s gas storage tanks are low because a lot of gas was used to heat homes in an especially cold winter and spring. Russia did not increase gas supplies over the summer to refill the tanks.

    This low supply of gas, coupled with rising demand from Asia, has pushed up the price of gas and therefore the price of electricity across Europe."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I still have a national embarrassment in the form of a pack of iodine tablets because some Irish git had a nuclear panic attack and sent them to everyone.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: The nuclear argument is creeping back to this thread. Any more and I will have to use the nuclear option and delete them.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Depends on who is paying.

    For domestic users and also farmers with large roof area, a number of panels on the roof might give 100% of summer use - possibly including the EV parked outside. The farmer would benefit by having a feed-in tariff. So a 10kw or 20 kw array might be a good fit for a domestic setting, particularly if backed by a suitable battery, it saves the grid, and reduces peak demand even in winter as the battery will be used to save peak cost in favour of the off peak rate.

    If solar plus battery had a payback of 5 to 7 years it is certainly attractive. At 10 years it is doable for many but much above that it needs more than just return on investment such as reliability of supply.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "* remember the recent time a current uk minister who is probably next in line for PM role threatened to starve this country?"

    Again, we export twice as much electricity to them as we import. Britain is a net exporter of energy from Europe, by a large margin, it is reliant on Europe for 35% of it's energy. Without those imports, their lights would go out.

    That is why even with Brexit, there was never any treat to the interconnectors, Britain is completely reliant on them and is pretty desperate for us to build more, so they can buy more of the wind power from us.

    Again, in 2016, when France had to take almost half their Nuclear plants offline, their lights would have gone out if not for their interconnectors with their neighbours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,918 ✭✭✭SeanW


    It's almost like increasing reliance on natural gas is a really, really bad idea. Especially when so much of Europe's gas supply comes from an ever more aggressive and militaristic Russia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,298 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You could say that - but former German chancellor Gerhard shroeder would probably disagree with you -

    Although there might just be a tiny bias on his part - Germany has backed itself into a gas tight corner... And has no real option but to buy Russian gas ,and quietly influence eu policy to suit Russia ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Backseat modding posts deleted. [Nuclear option exercised].

    If you want a solar based thread or you want a windy thread, then open one - just make it relevant to infrastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does anyone know if most of the proposed gw will be south facing to get most energy at midday ? Or east-west orientation to get the greatest spread of production -

    Most sites ( commercial and domestic) tend to be fixed , which makes for simpler- cheaper installation (and operation ) - but obviously due south means you dont get much extra benefit from our long summer days .. might suit the grid better if there was more of spread of production .. rather than uaranteeing full price for what ever is produced whenever ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,298 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Germany's decision to get rid of 40%+ of its electricity capacity in a short period will have long lasting negative impacts on the wider European economy, itself and possibly for the renewable energy sector.


    We are very lucky with the exceptional mild winter. Otherwise the European economy would be facing a severe crisis, it will take a lot of luck to keep supplies going till March 1st.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    Eh... I think you managed to completely miss the entire point of my post.

    As recently as 2012, Ireland imported 91% of its energy needs - all fossil fuels. It's now down to around 65% - due in a large part by the progress in decarbonising electricity. With the projects in line for completion in the next 5 years, renewable generation will provide more electricity than is consumed in the country on an annual basis.

    Interconnectors allow Ireland to sell excess electricity as well as buy it. In this context, it's a massive step up from the one-way flow of money out of the country to cover fossil fuel based energy costs. As has been pointed out, Ireland is a net exporter of electricity and has been since 2016 (except for 2019). Having more ways to export and import electricity improves energy security, ffs.

    Claiming that it's bad strategy to develop interconnectors makes about as much sense as suggesting Ireland should not rely on being part of the global phone network/internet/banking system, or participate in global shipping. The entire global energy industry has committed to electrification and currently the way to trade electricity directly and efficiently is by interconnection. Cutting yourself off from the global energy market would impoverish the country.

    There's currently 1.2GW of new interconnector capacity being developed - with an ETA of about 3 or 4 years. The benefits to the country when this capacity becomes available will be immense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭medoc



    Yea great points. Not much good burning diesel in America to harvest the chips and the tonnes of oil to ship it to Ireland. Never mind the lorries to bring it from the port. Bord Na Mona signed a big contract with Coillte last year for Irish biomass.


    Off topic but there needs to be a better way of accounting for carbon etc. Cutting the Irish herd to save carbon here but now down more rain Forrest to farm in Brazil and import the beef is stupid. Stopping moss peat and fuel peat harvesting in Ireland but bring in Lignite briquettes from Germany and moss peat and peat briquettes from Lithuania. “Creative” accounting with carbon is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    More energy produced than is consumed is smoke and mirrors relative to a net zero goal. Sound bite stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Britain is also reliant on Scotland which might upset the carbon balance if they get independence.

    The Greenlink interconnector should start construction soon. 500MW Ireland - Wales.

    The Irish end is at Great Island near Waterford City where there's an existing 464MW CCGT plant and the UK end is Pembroke South Wales where there's a 2,181MW CCGT plant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    Burning biomass for electricity is daft from every perspective.

    It's expensive - not quite nuclear levels of outrageously expensive - but double to triple the LCOE of wind or solar.

    It's less flexible than NG as a reserve.

    And from a local environmental point of view, it's awful - it burns worse/dirtier than hard coal and dumps about 50% more CO2 in the air per KWh than coal.

    Even from a global environment perspective, it's questionable. While waiting for new trees to grow and capture the CO2 released by burning the pellets, the free CO2 is going to do what CO2 does in the atmosphere. It requires trusting the supplier to plant and tend forest into the future to offset the smoke. Never mind that planting, managing, harvesting, processing and shipping are all currently carbon intensive.

    If the term "greenwashing" hadn't been adopted as a general term of abuse by climate-denialists, it would be appropriate here. Ireland doesn't need this expensive and dirty form of generation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    "Energy can't be created or destroyed only converted from one form to another "

    But if the energy used or turned into electricity doesn't involve burning and releasing Co² then that's a win -

    Building and transporting anything results in emissions - which is the basis of our economy - creative emission accountants take care of the carbon neutral / carbon negative labels -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You can convert between matter and energy.

    It's the Norwegian/Apple/Scottish - and no doubt Chinese - definition of net.

    Net zero is a meaningless concept. The only functionally valid measure is whether the amount of anthropogenic CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing or decreasing. The Norwegians fund their green policies and impressive stats by exporting fossil fuels to other countries which turn them into trillions of tons of CO2 while they drive around in Etrons and Teslas with stupid self-congratulatory grins of eco-smugness as if they lived on a different planet with a different atmosphere. I'm semi surprised the idiots haven't started trying to build a dome over all of Norway.

    Ireland and other western countries will utterly impoverish themselves through carbon taxes while the Chinese pull dangerously ahead due to their lower costs and greater relative competitiveness. Buying super cheap solar panels produced with Uyghur slave labour is the merest tip of the iceberg.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Norwegians are fully aware of that hypocrisy and momentum is growing to shut down the oil extraction industry there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    And we'd be screwed if they did shut it down - we're gonna be reliant on gas when the wind doesn't blow for the foreseeable future - and all that single use plastic packaging and useless plastic crap we all buy ain't going just appear out of thin air ,. Although seriously they are making huge efforts to reduce the methane flaring associated with oil production , and are starting to use renewables to power extraction and processing platforms , ( which does reduce Norway's carbon footprint )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Well, to be fair, its not proposed by anyone to shut it down overnight.

    By 2030 we should be getting the majority of our power from renewables (per current plans).

    Plastics is a different conversation, nothing to do with the thread topic but I get the connection in respect of oil products. Let me know if you start a thread on the topic, would love to explore it more



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,776 ✭✭✭eire4


    Good to see hopefully more to come sooner rather then later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    "Net zero is a meaningless concept. The only functionally valid measure is whether the amount of anthropogenic CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing or decreasing."

    You've pretty much defined what net zero means with your second sentence.

    As has been pointed, the word "net" is pretty important component of the phase "net zero". Of course if you ignore half of what's in front of you and fixate on the word "zero", then the concept will confuse you.

    The maths is simple - if all countries achieve net zero, then globally there will be no further anthropogenic CO2 added to the atmosphere. The latter is the goal, the path to achieving it is for each individual country to get to net zero.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Today, there is no wind with renewables only showing as 8.3%, which includes Ardnacrusha. We are exporting power, so there is no immediate problem.

    However, we need to consume less.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Off topic but -

    Have you heard that the EU is proposing a carbon import tax. This means that importers will have to pay the carbon tax associated with products manufactured abroad. This will obviously be passed onto consumers so will likely lead to higher prices but goods manufactured closer to consumers.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    84% of our current generation is from coal and gas and we are exporting to the UK, and that's brag worthy?

    Roll on the EU CO2 target missing fines, we deserve them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I rather suspected in 2006 that we were headed for for unaffordable eco taxes, and it's rapidly coming to pass. Luckily I have been planning to emigrate for some years, and the exit is now in sight.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "We and Europe (which throws interconnection argument in bin) now had yet another week of unusually low wind (and of course little sun this time of year)"

    What are you talking about, other then yesterday, today and the last week has been lovely and sunny here in Dublin! Like, really, really nice weather for this time of year. I was only thinking that on these days a bit of solar would be a nice addition to the grid.

    As for you keep posting every time that wind is low, it is completely pointless and silly.

    As has been pointed out dozens of times already, there will be days like today with little wind, when we generate most of power with gas, etc.

    It would be equally stupid if I came into this thread on every windy day and pointed out how much electricity was being generated on those days!

    The important number you need to look at is the fuel mix over an annual basis. In 2020, renewables represented 43% of our electricity generation, up from 36% in 2019 and up from just 6% in 2005! The goal is for it to be 80% by 2030. The odd low wind day is unimportant in the larger scheme of things.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Luckily I have been planning to emigrate for some years, and the exit is now in sight.

    Where you heading?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    NZ. If the house prices go up another 30% before I leave, it might have to be Oz, but that's a 2nd prize I can live with.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    NZ, a beautiful spot and one I hope to visit someday.

    Incidentally, one of the greenest grids on the planet with all their hydro, geothermal and the big move into wind. They'll likely hit net zero before we do.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And ironically New Zealand is another Nuclear free country and for much the same reasons as Ireland. A Nuclear Power plant would be too large for such a small country, a small island grid with no international interconnectors, too expensive and an abundance of renewable energy:

    It is brilliant that they have so much hydro, it is a real pity we don't have any more good hydro sites, but instead we have to lean into the resources we do have.

    Beautiful country, I hope I get the chance to visit myself someday, would love to hike all over the country.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Have been checking the Daily Solar Production thread and on days like these houses with about 5 to 6kWp are generating enough for 24 hours. Some feed batteries and some feed surplus to the grid. Roof space in this country is a huge potential for solar direct to the household without need for solar farms.

    Gas infrastructure is not a bad thing either. Earlier in the thread, Hitachi and Mitsubishi are developing turbines for burning a hydrogen/natural gas mix. Dull overcast days could be all gas generation but 70% green hydrogen. Dispatchable wind power by proxy.

    Post edited by Busman Paddy Lasty on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    What is the efficiency of solar at this latitude during winter? Bad weather aside, it would be good to know just how efficient or not it actually is across the year when the sun IS shining



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Sounds like we need more wind generation facilities to be honest



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Not over a year it isn't, what is so hard to understand about that?

    The goal is to greatly reduce the amount of carbon we produce over a year. Again the goal for 2030 is to be 80% renewable over a year. In 2030, there will be weeks like this one, where most of our power is produced by fossil fuels, those weeks will fall under the 20%. But there will also be weeks where we will produce over 100% of our power from renewables and they will vastly outnumber the poor weeks and thus fall under the 80%.

    Again:

    • 2005 6% renewables
    • 2019 36% renewables
    • 2020 43% renewables
    • Goal for 2030 80% renewables

    The trend is obvious and the move to renewables over the past 15 years has been tremendous, the 2030 goal looks quiet doable.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Struggling to understand what point you are trying to make

    You are saying we shouldn't invest invest in wind, solar, hydro, green hydrogen, storage tech etc because......???



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sigh, annual greenhouse gas emissions intensity of electricity generation for 2019:

    • Poland 751g CO2e/kWh
    • Ireland 316g CO2e/kWh

    That is basically the result of all the renewables (mostly wind) we have on the grid.

    By 2030 that figure will drop below 100g CO2e/kWh as we hit 80% renewables in Ireland.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Rather than cherry picking here's the last month in Germany.

    Germany also has 20GW of interconnectors. They've 6GW of pumped storage with another 3GW over the border in Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria for total of 8TWh of storage.

    Nuclear has not been very dependable in Germany so far this year.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Why are they different colours on the map then?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Technically they are more efficient because they are colder. Because of the time of year and latitude for optimum production the panels need to be more more vertical something like 60 degrees and harder to avoid shading other panels.

    It depends on where you are too https://www.met.ie//climate/what-we-measure/sunshine

    There's a lot more detail and tips over on the renewable energy forum



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Again, annual greenhouse gas emissions intensity of electricity generation for 2019:

    • Poland 751g CO2e/kWh
    • Ireland 316g CO2e/kWh

    BTW it dropped to 278g CO2e/kWh in 2020.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Its dishonest to use a single data point as a basis for an argument, regardless of what your position on any topic is.

    Feel free to throw up 3, 6, 12, 24 month comparisons but using a single moment in time just makes you look silly

    You object to Ireland spending money on power generation? You realise money has to be invested regardless of what the source is as there has to be and will always be, investment in energy generation and the grid. This has been true since power generation first began and will remain so.

    Please outline what you think we should be doing instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Theyre not more efficient though - they dont come as near to their rated capacity in winter, ergo they are less efficient.

    I get what you're trying to say re: electronics and cold weather but it does not apply to any meaningful way. Otherwise winter time would produce the most power (it doesnt)



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Might want to check your sums, that decimal point can be tricky

    Again, I ask, please outline what you think we should be doing instead. Note, I am asking because you've brought little to this thread outside of bashing literally everything (as far as I can see) so I'm honestly curious as to what you think we should be doing.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    I wasn't referring to the cost element of your statement.

    Again, I ask, please outline what you think we should be doing instead. Note, I am asking because you've brought little to this thread outside of bashing literally everything (as far as I can see) so I'm honestly curious as to what you think we should be doing.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    In 2020, wind produced 10.7 TWh of electricity.



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