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Issue with sick note

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  • 14-01-2022 10:57pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy


    Hi all,

    Following an immediate family member's passing, I went to the doctor on Thursday to get a sick note as I'm unable to cope with the anxiety. The sick leave start date is tomorrow. I had a lot of work to wrap up today and didn't want to let everyone down, so I specifically asked for it to start tomorrow.

    The issue is that the sick note bears the "date of issuance" as Thursday (yesterday) instead of today. Earlier today, I asked for the sick leave start date to be rectified to 15/01 instead of 14/01, but they refused to mark the issuance date as of today because they are adamant it needs to be the date of the original appointment.

    There are two dates on the sick note: leave from XX to XX and date certificate issued: XX.

    Now, I'm worried my manager is going to find it questionable that my sick note is starting two days after my appointment. It's very bizarre. It will look like I knew I wasn't going to be sick enough on Friday, but already knew I'd be sick starting Saturday. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Edit: We work remotely at the moment, per government guidelines (in case anyone is wondering about any safety / insurance implications).

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.

    Post edited by TheGlossy on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,657 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Surely your employer knows about your close family member dying? How will it be an issue?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,723 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Sorry for your loss OP.

    You can’t decide when you are going to be sick.

    You're doctor , when you went to them, assessed that you were unfit to work at that time. Therefore you’re sick leave would start from then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,984 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I agree , if an employer can't show some flexibility re a bereavement, it would be shocking 😳

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy



    They do indeed. I don't know, it is very strange to have two different dates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy


    Well, I made an agreement with the doctor to have the certificate start on a specific date and that's what they put on it. The problem is the "date of issuance" of the certificate at the bottom, not the start date of the sick leave.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,657 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Ignore the dates, won't be an issue in the circumstances. Surprised you even need a cert tbh in this case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy



    You'd be surprised. I came back after my bereavement leave and they didn't even schedule a catch-up upon my return to work. I was in until today and all I got was silence and more work being piled upon me which is why my stress levels have been unbearable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy


    I already took my bereavement entitlement last week (3 days + one day annual leave), so I don't have any other option but to go on sick leave, otherwise I'd have to use my vacation days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,984 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I'm sorry for your loss but I honestly believe there'll be no issue albeit I don't know your employer, if it is an issue , I'm sure your GP could ammend and put it down to typo etc

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,998 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    As a manager I would absolutely question this - which is harsh and not what you want to hear. If you were certified unable to work by a doctor you don't come in.

    Much of this would be because the company H&S structures would come down hard on "letting" you in when signed off. That is likely to be the norm in any large firm unfortunately.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,657 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Doctor has signed you off with anxiety, you are only adding to it by stressing about it. You worked today to get them out of a hole when you didn't really need to. Mind yourself and go back when your head is in the right place. Bereavement is different for everyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy


    We work remotely per the current government guidelines. I did not show up physically to the office. I'm still at home, so from an insurance perspective, it has no impact whatsoever. I simply logged in and did some work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭shinny


    And equally, as a former people manager, I wouldn't. I would note the date the doctor has indicated you are not fit to work from, not the date you had the appointment with them, and therefore the date they wrote it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    You wouldn’t think it odd that the Dr thinks today that the op is well enough to work tomorrow, but too unwell to work the day after?



  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Minier81


    That is the doctors call and not the managers.

    I was advised to stop working 2 weeks before my planned maternity date. It was unexpected for me. I discussed with the doctor and explained that stopping immediately would have caused me huge stress. I negotiated working the following day and then stopping work. This allowed me to had over a few tasks and feel a lot better about being out. Obviously the doctor would not have agreed it is was she was not happy with it. So doctors note written on a Monday saying I was to not work from the Wednesday.

    Thankfully I was fully supported by management who did not query the medical advice or the stop date.



  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭The Buster


    i dont think i would notice the different dates and would just focus on the dates unfit to work. however, if i noticed the different date i would question it. you cant plan to be unfit for work. the doctor has to be of the opinion at that point in time. how can they say, "you will be grand tomorrow, but i think you will be unfit the day after!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Actually it was the op’s call, he/she requested the leave start date to be delayed. I think it is fair to say that managers/HR are more sensitive/wary about pregnancy related medical issues.

    In the op’s case, his/her note says he/she is not anxious enough after the bereavement tomorrow to be unfit for work, but will be the day after.

    Chances are they won’t even notice, but if the do, the op should prepare an answer to the question about how he/she was well enough to work the day after visiting the GP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy



    Yes, it was my call to move the date to today because no one wants to cover for me at work yesterday and the only person who could cover for me (my manager) is off sick.

    I asked the administrative assistant who re-drafted the certificate (for the start date to be 15/01) to change the issuance date for it to coincide with the re-drafting date (14/01), but they refused. They said the certificate has to state the date of issuance as the date of the appointment, which makes zero sense in my eyes in the instance where the certificate is amended. If you re-draft a certificate, then you need to amend the issuance date.

    My manager may not question this, but HR might. The way they've done it is causing me more stress than anything else. €60 for a certificate that I'm not 100% comfortable with.

    The issuance date is at the very bottom, so I could hide it, but I feel uncomfortable doing this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Why would you think the date of issuance would not coincide with the date of appointment? You wanting to change the dates you will be absent would have no bearing on when your GP assessed you and wrote the cert.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The doctor could get in a of trouble if their medical records don't match what they put on the note. It's not the doctors or their assistants problem that you asked to be certified unable to work 2 days after you visited them and then worked the next day. TBH if I was HR I'd be questioning it and don't be surprised if they ask you to see their doctor.

    Never let work get in the way of your health because you are only a number to your employer at the end of the day.



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  • Posts: 0 Tara Plain Hoagie


    OP, you’ll be fine. Honestly your anxiety sounds like it’s taking over a bit. It’s a very simple explanation if you’re asked.

    you knew you needed the time off, but no one could cover for you so you decided to power through for a day or two. You were also under no illusion you could power through any longer but felt confident to work til cover was arranged the next day. It also sounds like this helped soothe your anxiety as you were therefore not worried you were letting your coworkers down by being absent when they had no one to cover.

    I definitely see what the dates might look like, but there’s nothing can be done now. You weren’t doing anything wrong here and I can’t imagine anyones going to care, notice or mention it. But if they do you know yourself you have a very appropriate reason, one which was discussed with your GP who could if necessary backup your account of things. I doubt that’d be anyway needed but all the same you know you’re covered if so.

    most important worry about getting better, go back to your GP if you feel you need to & maybe even attend some bereavement counselling if you think you could benefit.

    Take care!



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy



    They can ask that I see their doctor but I've been with them two years and never took a sick day (whether certified or uncertified).

    As stated in the OP, my parent passed away suddenly two weeks ago and I'm off on sick leave for 2 weeks. I think it's self-explanatory. There's no need to involve the work doctor because the reasons are clear why I'm unable to cope with work when I was already working 10-12 hours a day before my parent's passing. You have to be pretty unreasonable to ask a grieving person who just lost their parent to see a work doctor because you are assuming their sick leave is based on a fabricated illness. Grief and anxiety are debilitating.

    Work doctor in our policy is only involved following a series of short-term illnesses (can't remember the exact minimum).



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    You would be surprised at the amount of managers who couldnt care less about your loss and will make you jump over hoops in order to follow section 7.886 sub section 56 of their HR policy, instead of showing a little bit of flexibility and compassion.

    Equally shocking is the number of people on boards.ie who live to work and see no issue with an employee being hounded by their manager soon after a bereavement. Just look at some past threads on this issue and you will see two distict types of workers: 14 hour days, ladder climbing yes men who devote their lives to a company who would replace them in 2 seconds if they died.

    Or the normal folk who work as a means to an end and dont live for office politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,984 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I've seen some of that Bile, sadly and it's sadly becoming quite Toxic, especially on threads or forums were people looking for advice, direction or support .

    Obviously the OP is entitled to a certain amount of bereavement leave and the sick note for additional time, just hope common sense and decency prevails but I do see your point generally 😏

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    There is actually no legal right to bereavement leave in Ireland, its up to individual employers.

    Most places I've worked in have a week for leave for an immediate family member



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,984 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Yes, sorry I meant to add , depending on contract bit it's a very unpleasant place of employment that would object to compassionate leave .

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Posts: 0 Pablo Juicy Lip


    I worked in the public service, where bereavement leave was very strictly regulated. Got 3 days when my parents died, but my GP issued certs as required after that, with start date & end date & beteavement related stress as the reason. IIRC when my GP was notified by the hospital of my mother’s death, he phoned me pretty much straight away, and said he was writing a Cert there and then which I could collect when able to cover me for a week from the day after bereavement leave ended. It was dated the day of the call, just ahead of the certified sick leave period. In this case the doctor knew I was already unfit for work and would be for that while beyond official bereavement leave, so there was no problem in this instance about having a Cert issued ahead of the period of absence.

    In cases like this it is known with certainty you are already under some stress (maybe capable of finishing off basic duties) but that this will definitely magnify with passage of days owing to train of events, like funeral & aftermath.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TheGlossy


    Our company policy states 3 days of compassionate leave which is what was entered into the HR portal under my name. There's no discretionary period or adjustment dependent on proximity to the deceased (immediate vs distant relative).

    3 days is nowhere near enough, especially if your relative passed overseas. The shock is even greater that the death was unexpected and I hadn't seen this parent since before COVID. The first three days I was in shock and barely realized what was happening. The grief started kicking in after the funeral.

    People grieve differently. I don't want this sick leave to be held against me as a "female" in a "male" dominated industry. I've always been a career driven individual and worked 12 hours a day + weekends on a regular basis without a single complaint. However, when you suddenly lose a parent at 30, it's bound to throw you into a loop, especially if you didn't get to see them before they died. I don't want this sick leave to turn into "women" are more emotional than "men" and therefore need more time to grieve. Most men in this company would probably be shooting emails during a relative's funeral if they could.

    Companies should also recognize the fact that they need their employees to deliver work of adequate quality. A grieving employee forcing himself/herself back into work so quickly increases the risk of mistakes and poor quality delivery, especially if the employer is unwilling to discuss temporary workload reduction when the workload is not evenly assigned to begin with (as it is the case for me). In my case, my management completely ignored me when I returned to the office after my bereavement leave and some stakeholders even expected me to absorb my manager's work on my first day back, which triggered additional anxiety as I could barely cope with my own work which no one volunteered to cover during my absence.



  • Posts: 0 Pablo Juicy Lip


    I am so very sorry, this is a really terrible loss under awful circumstances. If you don’t take time to grieve it will come back to bite, whatever gender you are. It can actually be dangerous to work under those circumstances, eg if you have ever heard of Takotsubo cardiomyopathy, I got that under different but stressful circumstances. It’s caused by the action of a high build-up of stress hormones on the heart. A bereavement is a typical scenario for it to happen, although it is an infrequent occurrence.

    There was the case of a German Ryanair pilot who forgot to commence the descent into Stockholm in sufficient time, and ended up making an absurdly steep nosedive approach that gave the passengers a combination of severe earache & brown trousers. Naturally he got questioned and it turned out his young child had died the day before, but that he was afraid to report on sick for reasons somewhat similar to yours. He had been nervous of the culture of his working environment, even though he need not have been, and Ryanair and any responsible airline are very insistent on pilots taking sufficient sick leave under these circumstances and getting reintroduced to flying environment with appropriate checks. It’s all part of employing human beings. Men are affected by bereavement every bit as much as women, indeed women often cope a bit better.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The problem is with the sick note you provided. How can you go to a doctor saying that you can't work due to bereavement and then work the next day? Then you start trying to get the doctor to falsify their records because you messed up.

    If you weren't able to work then you shouldn't have worked, no one is that critical to their employer. If you were able to work why did you go to the doctor? That will be what your company will have the issue with.



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