Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Whether people go to mass or not has little to do with whether or not they want religious instruction. Plenty of people who would vehemently insist that they’re practicing Catholics hardly ever go to mass. Should they be going to mass? Probably. Does that mean they’re not raising their kids as Catholics? Absolutely not.

Wow, looks like I touched a nerve with the reminder of the cavernous empty churches on Sunday mornings despite all those people who are so desperately committed to a catholic upbringing. Mass attendance isn't MY standard at all - it is a catholic church standard. Isn't it a basic fundamental activity for catholics to attend Mass regularly. Bit strange for them to expect the entire education system to be built around their needs, while they can't be arsed getting out of the scratcher on Sunday mornings for an hour to put their frightfully important principles into practice. A cynic might be forgiven for thinking that it's not really all that important to them at all.

And thanks for the update on 'my' Athiest forum. It's ironic that you think it is 'my' forum somehow, as I don't think I've ever posted there. Or certainly it's not somewhere I would post regularly.

And you finish off with your repeated 'get up of their arses and make an effort' despite the fact that you've completely failed to show any school that has been built in recent years through people getting up off their arses. That's just a distraction tactic, isn't it? Be honest now. God is watching you.

Isn't it a fundamental tenet of catholicism to attend mass at least weekly? How can they pretend to be raising their kids as catholics if they're not going to mass regularly?

So you think Hotblack owns the Athiest forum?

Well you can go to the soccer forum and check whether all the posts are talking about soccer or bitching about GAA/snooker/Athletics/boxing etc.

Define yourself by what you are. Not by what others are and you are not.

Jesus man. Stop clinging on to victimhood. You have choice. If you are not aware of that, educate yourself on the many different options available. If you are either too lazy to avail of that choice, or this is another reason why you don't want to (e.g. the reason I mentioned above that many ET schools have "new arrivals" in them and you might have an aversion to that for some reason, or are in areas with cheaper housing and you also don't want your kids to be mixing with those kids) then that your own issue for you to solve yourself, not for others to hold your hand to do it. People are just people and just because others are different doesn't mean they are not as "good" as you!

Live and let live.

Take umbrage all you like, being a "sock puppet" as you say yourself isn't dependent on the number of posts or age of your account, is it? Or who exactly do you think I'm alt-ing for?

You might also find it enlightening to take a look at the 2011 and 2016 census data, specifically related to faith, with a keen eye to school-aged children, and reproductive-aged adult demographics. That's more accurate than the "90% Catholic" banana split you're trying to shove down people's throats, from both accounts.

I suppose that these dedicated non-Catholics should really stop being hypocritical then and stop taking advantage of the generously provided Catholic educational facilities. If the Catholic school next door is well run and has a good ethos and reputation and you decide to send your child there to take advantage of that, then maybe say "thanks" instead of moaning?

I can't speak to the others but I know for certain Scoil an Trionoide Naofa in Limerick is an amalgamation of a CBS, a Mercy convent, and a community school in a local village. So 3 schools, 2 of which were religious schools became 1. It wasn't an increase in religious schools, it's a reduction by 1.

1) Yes, 10% all round the country - so that's a very small minority.

2) Daddy's problem is that the existence of schools can't be planned ahead. No-one can tell Daddy what schools will be in existence 5-10 years down the line.

3) Yes, being in the catchment area does improve your chances, but it doesn't guarantee it, so if Daddy did move house, he'd still be facing the possibility that he won't get his kids into the heavily oversubscribed ET schools.

4) The oversubscribed school absolutely can't just expand. Expansions are decided by the Department, based on demographics. They take years to agree, and years to procure and years to build. The kids will be starting their career before the expanded school is available.

It might be time to admit that you've no realistic solution to offer parents who prefer not to have their kids indoctrinated in their State funded school.

You see, herein lies the nub of your problem. You are the one creating and imagining an issue, and forcing yourself into a self-perceived state of victimhood, and yet you are trying to put the responsibility on others to fix it for you.

Here are some solutions on you. After this, I can't waste any more time spoonfeeding you basic facts:

Solution 1: Enroll your kids in an existing ET school and be more tolerant if there are a lot of children of "new people" there. Your ET schools in upmarket fancy areas may well be oversubscribed, but it is much more likely that schools in less otherwise desirable locations will indeed have spaces available. So it's up to you to make your choice based on your priorities.

Solution 2: Send then to the a denominated school and take them out for any religious classes or events.

Solution 3: Do a bit of organising and be set up to take advantage of the next opportunity to set up a new school. Drum up support, or if too lazy to do anything yourself, support those who actually get off their arses. There was one highly publicised case about 10 or 15 years ago about an ET school that was set up in 3 or 4 weeks. It was controversial for a number of reasons. One being that it was populated almost 100% by non-white children and second that it was subsequently prioritised for dedicated facilites over an existing Gaelscoil that had been operating in a temporary facility and was waiting for the department to allocate proper facilities.

Solution 4: Homeschool you kids.

Solution 5: Plan ahead before buying a house so that you are in the catchment area of the school you want your children to attend

Solution 6: Stop being so dramatic about everything and just let the kid go to school with their friends without using them to push your own agendas.

Solution 7: Move to an area with a school of the type of your choice. As pointed out, this would generally be financially viable due to the bias of new areas having both non-denomination schools and lower cost housing. If you are feel that you would be too good to be associating with the neighbours, then that is a different issue.

Loads and loads of options for you. If you want to keep putting obstacles in your own way, then that is your choice.

It's not my skin is the issue here. It's your trying to make this about skin colour, because the cracks in your actual argument are being pointed out, and you've resorted to very thinly veiled ad hominem attacks.

There is about as much basis to your accusation as if I said you were only saying it to hide your own racism. It would be no less ludicrous to suggest so.

It's not even 10% though. Most of the 10% non-RC schools are Church of Ireland.

Gibberish.

To be fair, that question might be better directed to the original poster who started this thread looking for advice on how to extricate themselves from a situation that they had gotten themselves into through nobody else’s fault but their own.

@[Deleted User] the idea of “no taxation without representation” applies to the idea of representation in parliament, not representation in education. Essentially - it doesn’t matter what anyone does or doesn’t pay in taxes, Ireland’s tax system is not based on hypothecation. Receipts by the Exchequer are not ring-fenced by Government for any specific purposes in the way you think. It’s also untrue to suggest that the State is practicing discrimination by providing for education in the way it does, because it does not discriminate between patron bodies who meet the criteria to qualify for funding.

Part of the issues stem from the fact that people who wish to be represented in politics where these decisions are made, just aren’t very well represented, and the odd politician who does take it upon themselves to represent them, just doesn’t give a very effective representation of themselves. I am of course referring to John Halligan. By his own actions he makes it impossible for anyone to take him seriously, which is unfortunate for the people he claims to represent -

(‘Incompetence’ doesn’t begin to describe him tbh)

The other issue is that parents motivations and ideals for their own children, do not align so neatly with other peoples aspirations for children who aren’t theirs. If a parent says to me they’re not religious themselves but they want their children to make their Confirmation, that’s that parents own business. I’m not particularly interested or concerned enough to wish to make further inquiries. I meet parents all the time who aren’t religious themselves, and they don’t describe themselves as atheist either (whatever PR issues the various organised religions have, the idea of describing themselves as atheist is perceived even more negatively), with most parents I’ve known who aren’t religious simply describing themselves as non-religious.

That leads into the third greatest issue which is that for parents who do not wish to support or have their children participate in any religious model of education, and also do not wish to support or have their children participate in the Educate Together model of education, their options are even more limited again, and even schools which are under the patronage of the Minister for Education (what would be recognised as State schools in other countries), even they do not provide a means for parents to completely avoid their children being exposed to religion.

So while I do support the expansion of options for parents in the education of their own children according to their values, world view or philosophy; in my view that shouldn’t come at the expense of depriving other parents of those same equal opportunities for how they wish for their children to be educated. The issue is that the necessary public support just isn’t there to support minority views, which leads to situations forming of an ‘unholy alliance’ as it were (pardon the pun), between groups of people with fundamentally different values, world views or philosophies, in order to achieve a common aim -

Problem is, there simply aren’t enough people who can agree on one single aim that they could actually operate effectively together to achieve that single aim on a national scale, and so the current situation will continue as it is for the foreseeable future as the alternatives just aren’t any more popular for individuals various reasons known only to themselves.

1) ALL ET schools are oversubscribed, upmarket, downmarket, nomarket - they all have a long queue of parents who don't want their children to be indoctrinated. And of course, as explained repeatedly, if I go outside of my own area, I'll generally be at the back of the queue because of catchment area rules. If again you are suggesting that I move house, that is STILL no guarantee of a place, so I could well move house and STILL find myself outside of the numbers for the ET school.

2) 'Take them out' for every prayer, for every alter, for every 'is there anything to be said for another Mass' event, for every nativity play, for every school choir event. My children (and the children of those who don't like the idea of indoctrination) deserve a full, rounded education, including cultural and social events. They're not 2nd class students, getting a few crumbs dropped from the table. They should get the same education, the same participation in school events - which should of course be designed to be inclusive from the outset.

3) Do 'a bit of organising' in the vague hope of following the path of one unnamed school from 10-15 years ago, which just might end up in a school being available in 10-15 years time. Which school are you referring to here? A solution that would work for my children rather than my grandchildren would be great.

4) Let them eat cake. Seriously, your solution to a problem with schooling to stop State provision of schooling for those kids all together? We're looking for solutions, not punishments.

5) 'Plan ahead' - would be great if you can provide a crystal ball to let me know where the schools will be in 5-10 years time, and what the enrolment policies will be, and where I will come. Otherwise, you're asking to me to make what is probably the most important decision any family can make, the biggest purchase of their lives, on the gamble of an available place? All because you're aiding and abetting the church to dig their heels in and retain control of education.

6) 'Stop being so dramatic' is the classic bully response. If you don't want drama, then get the church out of State schools. Why don't YOU stop being so dramatic and arrange your religious instruction on your own time and your own expense?

7) That's 'solution' 5 again. It's a huge gamble. You're asking families to gamble everything because you want to retain control of education to impose your own religion on all others.

Are there any actual solutions out there? Here's one - get the churches out of our schools.

For the record I don't think religion should be in public funded schools. But I'm past caring.

That's some waffle. You don't want them to be given any education pertaining to religion, yet you're going to moan that they aren't being given a full education if they aren't included 🤨

It's like trying to deal with a 2 year old. They don't want to sit in the high chair so will scream and cry to get out of it, but if you try to take them out of it, they'll scream and cry because you are taking them out of it.

All you are doing is trying, and failing, to mask your own intolerance and bigotry here. It's not that you actually care about your child being taught about religions, you just want to impose your own will onto children of others out os some weird bitterness. If you want your child to attend the class to learn about religion you can leave them in the class. If you want to take them out, you can. You make that choice.

You say:

ET's are oversubscribed => parents want non-denominational schools

But we also have that Catholic schools are oversubscribed. Therefore by your own logic:

Denominations schools are oversubscribed => parents want denominational schools

I'll let you in on a little secret. For 99.99% of cases, a school that is there today will also be there in 5-10 years. You don't need to be imagining things about crystal balls. Stop making excuses for being lazy and making life decisions that have obvious and predictable consequences that you already know in advance that you later won't like.

The indoctrination doesn’t take place in school. The indoctrination takes place at home. Religious instruction takes place at school. You know this.

Do you blame the state if parents don't send their kids to school too? The state provides the education. If if it's not taken up, or if it's taken up elsewhere, that's not the state's fault or problem.