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Remote working - the future?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    a breakthrough of sorts! you say the danger is very small, but the possible repercussions are huge (e.g. an employer retreating from a 100% wfh offering), hence most people just want to lie low for the time being and try secure remote work into the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,920 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    You’ll have the parents using it as an excuse to dance attendance and attention on families and get domestic shît done at home… people IN work trying to get a hold of them or hold them accountable to timelines etc… and just have performances monitored will be impossible…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There's going to be one opportunity to negotiate on this. If you go into any negotiation, you need to know what's in it for the other side. In this case, the other side has a lot more to gain, and potentially a lot more to lose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭exitstageleft


    I don't really understand why this couldn't be sorted out. If you're working at any tech company you're expected to respond to instant messenger. You get pinged all the time. If you regularly take minutes to answer it's clear you're taking the piss. That gets addressed in your performance review or sooner if it's highly problematic.

    Sure businesses could easily use key monitoring software if they want to. I wouldn't be in favour of that at all but it's just to give an example of how you can manage WFH employees.

    I think things only seem pretty loose at the moment because suddenly loads of people were working at home with almost zero organisational prepwork. Again, look at tech firms where people have been WFH for years. People aren't able to get away with doing household chores all day and running their kids around.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Been working at home for years, in a US tech & data MNC in Dublin and London. And yes, I can still get some chores done during the day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,685 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There I was thinking a competent manager would look at outputs not instant bloody messenger. The new WFH presenteeism.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭exitstageleft


    Absolutely. You can put on a wash or fill the dishwasher on a coffee break. But you'd hardly get away with repainting the living room.

    My point is just that being worried about staff not doing their work when working from home is a bit overblown. It can be managed properly.

    And I agree with Hotblack above, that competent management would look at delivery and output ahead of presenteeism. (But I wouldn't be surprised to see presenteeism via instant messenger apps becoming more prevalent).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Plenty of jobs require you to be present (either physically of virtually) to answer customer queries during working hours. Even more expect you to present to join in conversations with colleagues during assigned working hours.


    And all jobs are required to manage your working hours, to ensure you are getting the legally required breaks and mot averaging more than 48 hours/week.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m in meeting with colleagues all the time…doesn’t preclude me from getting down to the post office, doing the laundry or heading out for a coffee



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I don't believe that your claim that there are large imminent savings for employers is based in reality!

    For starters most employers are tied into long-leases and will have to continue paying these until they terminate.

    But more importantly I don't think that overall office footprints will diminish in the future but rather the way that the space will be used will change. I work as the facilities manager for a financial services company and we are currently in the early stages of planning an office move. The new office will be as big as the old one but will have far fewer desks and much more collaborative and meeting space. In the proposed hybrid model of working, people will be required to come into the office for "purposeful" reasons not just to sit at a desk and do what they can do equally well remotely - which makes lots of sense to me? Every effort will be made to make the office a productive and attractive place to spend time. But there will be no saving to the employer in terms of office rent, in fact the fit out will be significantly more expensive than a traditional office space. And this is not just my experience but also borne out by an article in today’s IT.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    the way that the space will be used will change

    I've seen this too in Galway. There are several medical device companies who are taking advantage of the WFH switch to repurpose office spaces into cleanrooms. For these companies, its the cleanrooms that make the money, not the office space. This has resulted in these places increasing operative #'s while keeping office staff, just not having the same amount of office staff onsite.

    I've no doubt other places and industries are doing the same e.g. pharma etc so yeah, there will be less office space, but that won't necessarily mean the space won't be used, like you said, it will be used for something else, something more valuable than a desk.

    Hell even the parking spaces are dead space that would be better used. Even looking at somewhere like Parkmore in Galway, the amount of space used for parking for one manufacturer, Medtronic, is not far off the amount of space their plants take up. Its the same for Merit Medical, Boston Scientific etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭exitstageleft


    The parking is a good point. I hadn't thought of it.

    The amount of parking for a given development is usually determined at the planning stage, right? Would that mean that there'd be legislative change required to allow those plants to develop their carparks in work sites?



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Don't think so. I know a recent application (last 2 years) in Parkmore was told to go back and try again as they had too much parking. The planners are now looking for businesses to reduce the amount of space given over to parking so any move in that direction would likely be welcomed by them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Certainly, office cost savings are a medium to long term issue, probably over a 5-20 year cycle for many organisations. But if employees don't draw a line in the sand about sharing of savings now, it will all be eaten bread soon forgotten by the time the savings actually arise.

    And there may well be organisations that will reconfigure space rather than reducing space. I'm not claiming that my theory applies to every organisation in the country, but it certainly applies to some. There was a post on one of these threads about the Vista organisation (UK I think) planning on reducing office accommodation by 50%.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    So presumably since you are expecting employers to share any savings with you, you are will to share any savings on your side with them - reduced travelling costs, lunches out, etc right?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Remember how you got a salary increase when bus fares went up and fuel prices went up? Me neither. They didn't care about these costs in the past so there's no point in pretending to care about them now

    Savings on office costs will be very substantial over the coming years for most businesses. So, are employees going to sit back and watch shareholders getting fat?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭The Student


    If you have a skill that is in demand you can negotiate, if you don't you can try negotiate if you are unhappy with the outcome move to another company.

    An employer/employee relationship is business pure and simple. Any idea that an employer will share savings if they don't have to is naive.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Whatever, your argument does not fly and until you have something realistic not worth debating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You're absolutely right that employers will absolutely not share these savings, unless they are forced to do so.

    So now it is down to negotiation, more likely at a collective level than an individual level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭C3PO


    At the risk of repeating myself .. there is no evidence that employers will make the savings you keep banging on about!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Article posted on one of these threads showed Vista organisation reducing their office space by 50%



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition



    This is an interesting article and shows a microcosm of some of the issues the country is going to face now.

    Areas like Leitrim that always lost their young people now have a totally new situation, they’re actually going to be very desirable locations, but they will need new housing and infrastructure.


    Apart from the Celtic Tiger years, large chunks of Ireland have been in decline for almost all my life, but, rather amazingly, it all changed overnight.


    A lot of my employees in Belfast have moved house since we went fully remote. It’s great people can do this, but hopefully policymakers are alive to what’s going to be a fairly big population shift.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    The next census will be done in Apr of next year. That will highlight a lot of what you are talking about. My guess is once the rural politicians see the benefit WFH can bring to rural towns and villages, they'll be clamoring for more of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Have you met any young person from Leitrim who wanted to move back there?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Here’s another Leitrim story.

    I think the pace of this has caught everyone off guard, the shift to remote working is going to take the sting out of property in some areas, but the areas that will get the remote workers in many cases aren’t ready.


    There’s a similar situation in North Clare with remote workers wanting to live near the sea and while they are rejuvenating the area, there is also some displacement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 TuamJ



    Yeah, mate moved back and bought a little cottage near Rooskey. Was lived in by the previous owner for 30+ years so not much to be done. He has an acre, stunning scenery, close to his parents but not on top of them, and a work from home job and the mortgage a tiny fraction of his wages. I'm very jealous, lovely part of the country tbf.

    I work for a company that's mostly WFH (was pre-pandemic too) and the workforce is mostly based in the BMW. I was mentoring a young chap last month who is now living in a thatched cottage in Kerry with his girlfriend. Another mentee moved from Dublin to Donegal after getting the job.

    In fairness, you can't win. When young people stayed in Dublin and complained about the cost of living they were roasted by some and if you move back down the country people like you still have the smart comment.

    I live back in the midlands and you do have to make a bit more effort if you're single alright. Then again I don't drink and was never one for the pubs/clubs so I found it hard to meet people when I was living in Dublin too.

    I'm happier, calmer, eat better, weigh less, sleep better, am more productive. 5 minutes after finishing today I was half way across a field with my dogs watching the setting sun color the fog a lovely pink. Now at home cooking a feed from scratch. Anyone who wants to put me on the M7 for 2 hours a day or (maybe worse) mortgaged up to the eyeballs in a cookie cutter estate in Kildare or Wicklow can go and do one.

    My employer did do very well during the pandemic but in fairness I've had 2 10% increases since March 2020 and they've approved me to work from Costa Rica 60 days next Feb/March so I've little to complain about. I do appreciate that not all employers are as generous. I know someone working for a company so scabby they are logging keystrokes and pee breaks.




  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    I had to read this post twice it's so awesome. Congrats on your move - sounds like its going great.


    the additional sleep every day - even if it's only 30-40 minutes - has really been beneficial to my health. I had forgotten what it was like to not be tired all the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    How many months til the same old heads start trying to tell us all again how great it will be to be back in the office?





  • Certainly, every company that is a producer of physical commodities or needs space to store/organise items to provide a service will delighted to make better productive use of their premises and could expand services/production.

    Companies that provide non-physically tangible services (eg insurance etc) will be tied into leases with relatively empty offices. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

    Over the Christmas I was talking to the relative who is an insurance risk assessor and he has been involved in a few wfh risk assessments, but says it is still a grey area and depending on how the courts will view cases going forward. Contributory negligence is a factor, so it is incumbent on every employee to maintain their workstation to a safe standard.



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  • Rule of thumb, property prices & rent go up according to where people tend to want to live. Significant towns with waterside facilities, such as Carrick-on-Shannon, are going to be particularly popular for recreational reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭ASOT


    I have to say Andrew you post some shite in this thread and it's made to see it's still going. Fair play on fighting the good fight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    "Maintenance of workstation" isn't really the big issue, is it? Not much maintenance involved in a desk or a monitor.


    Provision of equipment and ensuring that the workstation is ergonomically safe are the big issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Feel free to point anything that I've said that is factually incorrect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,572 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Like I said, feel free to point to anything I've said that is factually incorrect.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Been there, done that, many times

    Like I said, read the thread





  • Well, you know what I mean; presuming a formal assessment has been made of workstation, keeping it that way. Eg, not moving laptop to the top of the kitchen stove and then trying to claim for a work-related burning injury. 😂





  • A lot of people literally work with laptops…. er…. on laps. Friend of mine the other night said when she was studying in Kuala Lumpur, all the guys in the apartment she shared literally all sharing the sofa, undressed, with only the laptop providing a figleaf, so to speak. No workstations to speak of, and all crowded into a small living space. I’m sure it must happen in Dublin too.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭BhoyRayzor


    I really hope the civil service will be sensible with WFH in the long term. Hard to know if we can trust that if the role can be done remotely then the option will be there. It's hard to see them diverging away from the Dublin centralisation of certain roles and/or branches of a Department. Having to decline a possible promotion or job offer as the role is technically based in Dublin, while it could be done remotely predominantly or wholly, is no good for either party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,990 ✭✭✭billyhead


    I think it's going to be 3 days in the office 2 at home in the long run and your work section has to be in the office the same day at least once a week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Olive00


    I can't imagine that I will ever return to work in the office. Working remotely is a freedom for me. No matter where you are, you just need a laptop and the Internet. In general, it's great that now you can make good money without getting out of bed. I have several ways to make money and they all just need the internet. First, it's my job as a motion designer, I'm a freelancer and second, it's my hobby-work - sports betting here https://oddsdigger.com/au/bowls .



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    Just lost a valued team member this week - the reason? Our current employer won't let him continue to work remotely post pandemic, insisting on a 60% return to the office. He has now moved on for a higher salary and a 100% remote offering.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Without providing any context it is impossible to whether your employer was being reasonable or not.

    I would seem to me that this "valued team member" would have moved on anyway for the "far higher salary".



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    Unfortunately, I do know the precise details and the remote workwas the deciding factor - in fact it was the only reason he started looking for a new role at all - they would have stayed with the current employer if they matched the 100% WFH - sign of the times



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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    That would have been an extraordinary decision given that the pay was so much less.



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    Who said the pay was so much less? you have misquoted what I said above.

    But let's not distract from the key issue, flexibility in the place of work is now a major issue when trying to attract and retain staff.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,619 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    The CSO have just released the results of a large survey carried out in Nov 2021 on the topic of WFH

    Further detail is linked below, go through the "Chapters" on the right of the linked page

    Infographic with summary info


    Some of the stats

    • Nine in 10 (90%) of those aged 35-44 years who could work remotely would like to do so when pandemic restrictions end
    • Eight in 10 (80%) of those in employment have worked remotely at some point since the start of the pandemic
    • Of those in employment in the Mid-East Region (Kildare, Louth, Meath and Wicklow) who could work remotely, 93% said they would like to do so after all pandemic restrictions are removed
    • Three in four (75%) respondents who were engaged on home duties and almost seven in 10 (69%) of those unable to work due to longstanding health problems would consider employment if it could be done remotely
    • In the Mid-East Region (Kildare, Louth, Meath and Wicklow) 59% of all those who would consider moving house if they could work remotely would move to a different county unlike those living in the South-West Region (Cork and Kerry) who were most likely to remain in their own county
    • Just 3% of remote workers whose main mode of transport to work prior to the pandemic was a car are making more trips by car on days they remote work
    • Almost two in 10 workers (18%) would like to work from a remote work hub or a combination of home and a remote work hub when pandemic restrictions end
    • Of those in employment who can remote work, 88% would like to do so when all pandemic restrictions are removed. Of these, nearly three in 10 (28%) said they would like to do so all the time. Six in 10 (60%) said they would like to work remotely some of the time. The remainder (12%) said they would not like to work remotely in the future
    • Those aged 35 - 44 years were the age group most likely to want to work remotely all the time (32%)
    • Just under one in 10 (9%) who rated their home broadband as excellent would not like to work remotely in the future. This figure rose to 15% for those who rated their home broadband as poor
    • Almost two-thirds (65%) of those in employment whose job could be done remotely but who have not worked remotely at any point since the pandemic began said they would definitely (49%) or probably (16%) work remotely if the opportunity to do so was available
    • Three in 10 (30%) of those in employment whose job could not be done remotely with their current employer would be definitely (18%) or probably (12%) attracted to a new job that could
    • Almost six in 10 (58%) of those not in employment would consider taking a job if it could be done remotely
    • Gardening, the choice of just under three in 10 (27%) of those who felt they had more time available to them because of working remotely, grew more popular as age increased for both sexes with 56% of males and 38% of females aged 55 years and over choosing this activity.
    • Nearly four in 10 (38%) of those in employment would consider a house move if they could work remotely. A further 7% said they have already moved because they could work remotely
    • Compared to days they are in their workplace, when those aged 45 – 54 years’ work remotely 73% take less car trips, 34% take more trips on a bicycle and 50% taking more trips on foot

    Various news reports on the topic





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