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Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭M three


    If anything most of the lewd behavior I've seen while socialising (pre covid obvs) was from women and directed at men.

    We've all seen it, the hen parties with chocolate male parts, straws with dicks on them etc. Male blow up dolls. Anytime they've recounted the details of a weekend hen party there's usually entail a bloke hired into whatever airbnb they're staying in under the pretense of cocktail making classes. Or a nude painting class. They mauling they get is something else, whatever few hundred they got wasnt near enough.

    Thats before you even get into what goes on in majority female workplaces, the amount of bitching, backstabbing and bullying that goes on is incredible. It seems to be easy for women to display solidarity with each other online and after tragic events, and rightfully so. But they could back each other up a hell of a lot more in everyday life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭OEP


    It was a straw man argument and I did deal with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,269 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I genuinely couldn't point to a single man of my acquaintance who'd cat call a woman and believe me, I know plenty of shameless flirts.

    The last remaining cretins who do it are the same scrotes that generally make any area they're in an unpleasant place to be and it's other young guys who tend to get the worst of it in my experience: the scumbags might catcall at a girl or even grab her handbag and cycle off but they'll kick seven shades out of some other young lad for the tenner in his wallet. Most of those cretins don't have fathers to speak to them, and if they do, their fathers will be of the same ilk.

    You are not going to get through to that type of person by sending in some social studies graduate who's drank the feminist kool-aid to lecture them about how women are perpetual victims and straight white men are always to blame. Real life tells them otherwise: their female classmates will be outperforming them in school, will have an easier time getting employed or accessing third level, have more opportunity to "marry up" (and are far more likely to come out the better should that marriage end in divorce), will out-earn them when they enter the workforce (unless they choose to side-line their careers for motherhood), have easier access to social housing and support, are less likely to be the victim of a violent crime, are less likely to commit suicide, etc. etc. etc.

    Despite what the misandrists making a living at it are telling you, the facts all point the same way: Irish women have far more privilege than men.

    If you truly want a more egalitarian society, you need to look at things through a far broader lens than that which feminism affords you. Most of Ireland's social issues are far more to do with class than gender, race or creed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,714 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Can we just get past the whole males passing comment on females in public.

    not all females take offence.

    nobody is condoning threatening or intimidating behaviour from males directed at females.

    vast vast majority these incidents are not at all menacing/threatening or nasty. They are simply instances of males interacting with females, albeit childishly or immaturely.

    surely most women would not want a situation where a male is arrested, charged and convicted for what he never ever meant as nasty or intimidating. A conviction that remains with him forever, and that could see him lose his job.

    are we really advocating for this?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To clarify i didn't say they could warn him


    I said they could go to the house in response to your complaint

    If it was an arrestable offence the Garda could arrest him.

    I'm not sure the Garda has to warn him at your request but he should follow up the complaint properly

    If you're not happy you can complain to the super or to GSOC .Saying he did not answer his phone is a pathetic cop excuse



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Not backed up by data indeed OEP and this is part of the problem. The feeling of being unsafe and this being revved up by the society and media. Take this current example in the Sunday World. Murder of Aisling Murphy lays bare horrifying history of violence against women in Ireland. In 2020 eight out of ten of murder victims were men. Actual fact. There has never been a year in the history of this state where that stat was 50/50, never mind reversed. The reality is that there is a 'horrifying' history of violence against men in Ireland*.

    OK let's imagine this another way: 70% of all sexual assault victims in Ireland are women. Actual fact. An appalling statistic. Now imagine a media outlet ran with the headline "Rape of John O'Citizen lays bare the horrifying history of sexual assault against men in Ireland". Pretty much everyone who read that would be shouting WTF are these idiots on about!! And they'd be dead right, but the actual Sunday World article is just as innacurate, paranoid and driven by cultural perception and we buy into it without much questioning.

    So why is this accepted? As I said it's because women are seen by society as automatically more vulnerable, automatically victims and agentless, even more 'valuable' compared to men, who must be protected. Ironically by the same men. Note the call for fathers to instruct their sons on how to behave. Brothers and male peers ditto. Even here women are out of the picture, off the hook as it were. It's both mysoginist and misandrist at once.


    *It's not actually that horrifying beyond the personal tragedies involved as we're a very safe country to live in.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    You could perhaps keep your opinions to yourself. I know, that’s just a mad idea

    It is highly unlikely that a beautiful woman is waiting until the age of 25 or so to hear she’s beautiful for the first time.

    Why is society so pass remarkable in public areas to complete strangers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,709 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Who the hell does it though? It pretty much identifies the IQ/mentality of the individual as well. IMO it's the same as when you hold the door open for a woman in a pub/nightclub and they look at ya like yer a piece of shít and say something along the lines of "as if". And I'm not trying to draw similarities as such just that they are both common identifiers of low level humans.

    And can we stop with the building site trope please! Any half decent site has a zero tolerance policy to that sort of behavior.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is highly unlikely that a beautiful woman is waiting until the age of 25 or so to hear she’s beautiful for the first time.

    Where did you get "that" from his post?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have heard some woman on radio define asking someone to dance as harassment

    Maybe they meant persistent hassling to dance but they said asking to dance in a night club.

    Was few months ago before this murder of Ashling


    By the way i don't condone the wolf whistle or know anyone who behave s like that.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you do believe that saying that wow, "that woman is beautiful" should be enough to warrant a court case if the woman didn't appreciate it?

    Because that's what I'm arguing against.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    A beautiful woman as mentioned by the earlier poster, indicates someone who has at least reached the age of maturity and was likely a beautiful teenager as well.

    it would be unlikely that she has heard the phrase for the first time as a grown woman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭notAMember


    I don't want to dismiss it, because it is a topic worth discussing, but suicide figures are very difficult to draw conclusions from, as they are quite subjective. It can be difficult to separate accidents from suicides. Suicides are often hidden in other categories like unknown cause of mortality, or deaths of undetermined intent. Falling off bridges, single vehicle collisions, accidental overdoses vs self-poisoning.


    The basic experience of what it is like to be female in society today is what the poster meant. The pervasiveness of gendered expectations is wearying for women.

    Take something simple like shopping for toothpaste. You go into any chemist in the country and you will see thousands of anti-aging products, aimed squarely at women. Creams for wrinkles, age spots, crows feet, any myriad of products. The obligation to look pretty, get dressed up, do hair and make-up. But also understand simultaneously that buying clothes, make-up or spending money on haircuts is seen as silly and frivolous. Men generally get to age in peace.

    Any child doing anything someone disapproves of... there's usually a comment about it being the mother's fault.

    People demeaning "types" of women. Girls who like make-up or romcoms, or makeup, or nerdy girls, sporty girls, confident girls, shy girls, "karen"s. Each and every trait that is seen as feminine is derided. Meggings for goodness sake. Men are so insulted with being associated with something that might be considered female, that they made up a new name for running tights, or leggings for men.

    Medical treatment. Having a baby? There is no way you are the right age. You are either way too young if you're under 30, and geriatric if you are over 30. And that's comments from medical professionals. Gyne problems are often misdiagnosed. Pain women experience is dismissed and expected to be endured instead of being diagnosed and treated. It's incredibly difficult to get something like PCOS, cysts or endometriosis treated, but there are dozens of breast and face surgeries available, lip fillers, bum implants. Those have a menu.


    Expectation to be responsible for life-admin. My husband is well able to manage our children. I go away with work for weeks at a time, and while I miss them all at home, I'm not concerned for their welfare, that they will starve or miss appointments etc. The amount of people who ask me whether I stocked the fridge in advance, or did meal plans, or lists of tasks. No , I did not. But that general expectation for me to have served him this platter of information is there.


    And that's without mentioning any violence, sex or abuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭enfant terrible




  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    I am not aware of anyone who does it either, but judging from other contributor’s posts here, it seems to be quite widespread.

    Re the building site angle, I never mentioned it and one of the experiences I had it was from from the complete opposite spectrum to the lad from the building site.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That makes no sense in the context of TheDunnes post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Who is it that you think expects you to wear make up? It certainly isn't society, the reality is that most people really don't care about the way you look. My wife rarely wears make up, I don't think she feels under any obligation to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Why do you feel compelled to comment on a complete strangers appearance in public ?

    Would silence for fear of causing offence no matter how positive the comment is, not be a better policy.

    Really do feel like I’m from a different planet sometimes…idk



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You act like men don't have any gendered expectations.

    And frankly, any of the issues you brought up are laughable.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From what I gather, the people who advocate all of this, want a world where a man will never say anything to a woman without knowing beforehand that it is received well, and actually wanted.

    So, in other words, a man should never express an interest or pay a woman a compliment unless she has asked for it first. Permission needs to be extended first.

    I wonder if the people advocating these kind of behaviors, really understand the kind of world they're promoting. After all, few women will initiate first contact with a man, even when they're attracted to that man. The expectation is still for the man to initiate contact for romance or intimacy. However, by making sure that it's always wrong for a man to express interest (without knowing beforehand that it will be well received) means that in the vast majority of situations, a man will not be able to initiate anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Perhaps when the woman hears she’s beautiful from a complete stranger…..is she now wondering, do I have a problem here.

    Have you actually said it to many women ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I don't believe we disagree on anything relating to this matter.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't. I just don't think it should be illegal to do so.

    And no, I don't think remaining silent for fear of offending someone is even slightly a good idea in any way or a policy I would want to live by.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Wow….just wow…say what you like regardless, oh you really are a keeper



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So that's your justification for wanting unsolicited compliments to be illegal?

    I have complimented women out of the blue in the past. If I hadn't done it, I would not be married to my wife.

    I'd hate to be a young single guy in this day and age.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The interesting thing is that the products and expectations you listed are driven by women towards other women. Take just about any group of women meeting together, and they will spend time observing each others appearance, how well they look, what products they use and recommend. Just as they will talk about others outside of their group, pass comments about their appearance, etc.

    You've decided that everything is driven by male pressure. It's not. Women have been influencing and judging of other women's behavior since forever. Look back throughout history, during the times where gendered roles were strictly reinforced, and you'll find women ensuring that other women didn't break the accepted social norms.

    And men experience a wide range of gendered based roles and expectations throughout their lifetime. It's not as simple as you want to suggest it to be.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I know right?

    How ridiculous.

    You sarcastically calling me a keeper is offensive to me. Why did you feel like you could say it?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,025 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    That's fair enough, you don't have to engage. My posts to you are extremely polite, Klaz. It's the actual content of them and pushback against your views that does not suit your narrative and may be diffcult for to answer.

    By the way, while you responded to the other posters who questioned the victim blaming post, you did not answer the question for them either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Different setting, not on the street so you’re ok…..you’re in your safe space



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh right.

    So you genuinely think that it should be illegal to compliment a woman on the street?



  • Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    Of course it all depends on what they look like aswell. The response to the cat calling/wolf whistling (which is juvenile and pathetic by the way) will not be uniform and the reaction will largely depend on who the person is giving it. Unwanted attention of this kind is usually judged on after the fact so to speak i.e when I get a look at the bloke i'll decide afterwards whether it was something I wanted or not.

    If a stranger gives you the eye in a bar and approaches to ask a girl out its usually going to be perceived in one of 2 ways:

    1) Average/below average looking bloke- Get away from me your creep, and tells girl mates about very "bad vibes" he was giving off.

    2) Above average/Very attractive guy- "Well hello", "I admire that guys bravery, what a sweet guy"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why should he answer if he doesn't want to no more than a woman should be spoken to if she doesn't want ?

    Your posts being polite do not oblige him to reply



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  • Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    I have to laugh at some of these "issues". Men are allowed to age in peace? As another poster said, for whose purpose are you wearing make up? Society tells you so?

    I find there is a wealth of expensive creams/make up options on sale because its usually women who spend a fortune on them and see them as lifes essentials. A marketing executives dream. I'd try being a bit more thick skinned and maybe going without face paint and cream for a while, I think you might find the world doesn't give a damn that your face isn't as hydrated as it should be and the responsibility you feel has been summoned by yourself and your own perceptions.

    Usually, its a perception to keep up with what other women are doing rather than for the benefit of any man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    all harmless fun , vast majority of people know the line between off colour humour and harassment but bar a North Korea sized state or religious police Saudi Arabia style , I dont know how the codes of behaviour some have in mind , can be enforced ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have. It's not the first thing I say to a woman, but it could be part of the overall conversation with someone I've just met. If I genuinely believed her to be beautiful. A compliment can be given without there being any expectation of anything coming from it.

    The truth is that many women like to receive compliments (yes, from strangers too), and have the ability to know if it's honest or not. It's the body language, and behavior of the guy that is more important than the words themselves.

    If the guy is acting aggressively, then regardless of what he says, the woman will be intimidated. However, if it's a relaxed, friendly atmosphere, without any crowding of personal space, then... there's no real reason to be intimidated by a compliment. And yes, as a bachelor in my 40s, most of my female friends are those who I had previously dated, and I know from conversations how they felt about these things.

    Shocking as it sounds, many men will talk to women to find out how to have better success at dating and also to avoid the kind of situations which intimate or make women uncomfortable.

    Your post seeks to create a "one fit for all situations". Life is not like that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Like the girl i knew playing pool.

    Guy she likes chatting her up


    Guy she doesn't like coming on to her

    Same behaviour on guys part



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,025 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Sorry, but that really is so funny.

    If you put forward an argument or make allegations against anyone, you need to be able to back them up robustly, otherwise, they are just hot air and conjectue.

    That's very different than a woman out and about jogging saying nothing to anyone and being approached or shouted at.

    Do I seriouly need to point out they are very different things?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,269 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Are you suggesting that female suicides are under-reported more than male ones? Have anything to back that up? The last research I remember on it was that women were more likely to engage in "cry for help" suicide attempts involving methods likely to fail whereas men were more likely to use more certain "just do it" methods (a rather bleak win for the guys tbh: we're better at killing ourselves)...

    Most of the expectations you say society places on women are, let's face it, placed upon them by other women. The anti-ageing / diet / cosmetic / fashion industries are all female lead. Want proof of that? Compare the models in a fashion magazine to those on a porn site that's aimed at men. You'll have far more variety in size, shape and age on the porn site.

    I've never heard of "meggings" before but I'd be shocked if it was man who came up with the term. Any bloke I know whose worn that kind of lycra gear for sports tends to refer to them as "thermals".

    "Karens" as a group earned their derison tbh. Anyone who's ever worked in retail knows the type: the pompous self-important middle aged woman who deems all others to be beneath her because she was so clever as to marry a successful (or simply wealthy) man. Having worked all kinds of retail and customer service jobs during my teens and college years, I don't think I ever met a male version.

    Medical treatment is an interesting one to bring up when the facts show that more is spent on women's healthcare than mens, more public health campaigns and screening services exist for women than men (while anyone with an ounce of common sense would admit Ireland's recent cervical screening scandal was a horrendous failure of the HSE there was public outrage about it and the service is, if nothing else, well funded and promoted - do we even have a public screening system for prostate cancer? If so, I've never seen an ad for it...). I'm not sure where you're going with the cosmetic surgery angle... that's a market pretty much entirely driven by women: the demand is there so it's hardly surprising that in a free market, medical professionals will leave the notoriously stressful work environment of the public health service to make hay in the private cosmetic treatment market. If there's any blame to be dished up here, surely it's on the women (and to be fair increasing numbers of men) that are creating that demand and luring doctors away from the business of actually treating illness?

    Your final sentence is perhaps the most worrying: you've listed sex as something to be mentioned alongside violence and abuse. Now, perhaps you meant to differentiate between sexual and other forms of abuse? Or are you of the extremist feminist view that any form of heterosexual sexual interaction is in fact a form of rape?



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭kazamo


    In today’s world, if you make a comment to a complete stranger that makes that person uncomfortable then I don’t think that is acceptable.

    How do you know the woman’s back story, maybe she had a similar experience that started with a complete stranger saying you’re beautiful, and ended up with him following her home or worse.

    We as a society need to respect all in our society, and if that means you can’t say you’re beautiful to complete strangers, is that not a small price to pay for another step towards making all of us safer as we go about our daily lives.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,269 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Now, this is **** hilarious.

    You're arguing against freedom of speech... on the basis that it might cause offence... and try to make your point by deliberately insulting someone?!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your response to SoulWriter is exactly why I don't want to engage with you. True to form.

    I answered other posters questions directed towards me. That's it. Let's leave it at that. If it makes it easier, I'll go ahead and ignore you properly. Perhaps that's better.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't care what you point out i won't be replying.you seem to think you define rules for every one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    What really frustrates me about the reaction to this murder is thanks to all the gender focused distraction our Justice minister is able to get away with talking about women instead of actually addressing the problems in our criminal justice system which are so serious.

    I'd rather know what they plan to do about crime and punishment in Ireland or would that be too difficult? Too afraid what the Irish Times would say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,025 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Walshb, in all fairness, why should we get past it. It's the crux of the whole thing.

    The discussions in the media, the stories on social media, the newspaper articles, the Late Late Show, all of them, all of them are about this topic. Women talking about their safety. Giving their experineces about running past a group commenting on their appearance. Their safety about not being able to go about in public, to go for a run, a walk, a coffee.

    While it might suit you to say, not all females take offence, a huge percentage do. More do than dont. They are the people that have spoken out the past week on all forms of social media. Do they not have a voice? Should they get past it?

    Who are you to say the vast majority of these incidents are not threatening. How can you say that, when they are not happening to you. How can you disregard the feedback from the hundreds of thousands of women who have come out and given their experiences over the past week or so.

    The discussion should focus on WHAT should be done to stop it and HOW , rather than SHOULD SOMETHING be done.

    Because following what happened to Ashling, hundreds of thousands of women have come out and said enough is enough, something should be done, about the murder, about the element of fear, about not being able to go for a jog, about not being able to sit at a cafe on your own.

    ABOUT ALL OF IT.

    YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.



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