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General Irish politics discussion thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭BringingSexyBack


    SF are very popular in Donegal, but FF have always had a base around the county and they are still prominent in the County Council as per the 2019 Results. As mentioned already, there maybe a Thomas Pringle effect. He is from South Donegal, like Doherty and he is ex SF, so he is very transfer friendly

    2016 was off the back of a pretty successful 2014 Local Election for SF though. The third candidate was Councillor Gary Doherty (  Stranorlar -Lifford area) isn't too far from McLoughlin's heartland . He ate into McLoughlin's vote - While G Doherty got elected to the County Council comfortably in 2014 and 2019, his vote share dropped a little in 2019 . Charlie McConalogue's vote nose dived in 2020 compared to the poll topping 1st count election of 2016. Bear in mind with Cope Gallagher gone (and McConalogue didn't get enough of his votes) not sure anyone knew what would happen to his votes. I am not sure that there are any SF Donegal Councillors that could command enough votes of his own without splitting either of the incumbents

    We know how bad things were for SF in the 2019, and frankly , they simply did not have anymore suitable candidates. They performed brilliantly , especially in the back yard of the the now Taoiseach and the former Tanaiste's (Coveney) and heir apparent of FF (McGrath) - Could he pull that off again ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭BringingSexyBack


    @Brussels Sprout

    Interesting link, but I will have whatever he is taking . 65 ? LOL Green Party will actually keep seats ?

    The following SF seats will be in danger - if the public judge the individual on their merit (most are idiots, so, they won't) :

    Westmeath - Longford - Athlone will want their own TD , and even if Boxer Moran is unpopular, he will get back - Athlone region is bigger than Mullingar - SF have a weak presence in Westmeath in local council since they bullied and pushed out their stalwart in 2017ish and unless SF get a strong runner in Longford who will transfer to their Mullingar mate - (I can not really talk about Longford Politics) SF maybe be fucked. How she got elected, never mind topping the poll remains a mystery to people outside Mullingar .If there was a local election tomorrow , I can not see many SF candidates (and I know to three who would likely run) getting voted in to the County Council -

    Roscommon - East Galway - The SF girl, is a smart and popular girl. She will enjoy support along East Galway, but, FF lost a Safe seat in the Roscommon side with their ridiculous vote management by brining in a person that would not be exactly, popular in Roscommon despite her family lineage. That SF win is somewhat fluky (horrible thing to say , I accept, people work hard, but FF lost that seat)

    The Clare Seat - unless they sub the incumbent

    Dublin Bay North - If allowed to run alone, she will be okay. If they get greedy thinking that this unstable area is ripe for a Second SF person, her vote will take a hit. This can be an unpredictable place. As annoying as the Labour lad is, he has been hard working in that area. SF success will depend on how FF do to shake up what is an uninspiring line up ie Haughey - Mitchell of SF should regain her seat , but the vote she got ? Not sure she could repeat that , she is not exactly visible around the area.

    Mayo - She will probably retain her seat, he entrance to the Dáil was a long time coming. FG will have the GAA vote (Dillon) not sure FF are strong enough to carry a second TD , even if she (Chambers) is a former TD and still enjoys national prominence. This would not be a county to risk running a second SF person - But, the increase in her vote , where did that come from ? A protest vote ? She made some idiotic comments about Covid and comparing it to Rosa Parka and US segregation , recently . Alas, people are thick, so they probably would have agreed with her .

    Come the pre election tv campaigns and Mary Lou is wheeled out , people will see what spoofers Shinners are. It would stop the SF rise, but it might be enough to keep the seats down to 40-45 - 65 Seats ? **** sake ...............



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    He doesn't properly counter for local personal popularity though - for quite some time he had Howlin losing his seat.

    SF will eat at the Indpendents-and-other-Left seat count; but the idea of FFG actually gaining four seats between them while SF gain 26 is implausible. The SocDems holding 5 while SF gain 26 is so far beyond implausible its laughable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    What would be your prediction based on current polling?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    SF high 50s, FF ~30, FG mid 30s; stronger Ind/Lab, lower SD/GP/PBP than that guys predictions. However, I'm not basing that on an apparent model or looking for donations to do so either!

    SF could yet go too hard on candidates, run too many and slip a few seats as a result but I wouldn't bet on it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I would have guessed similar numbers. I'm curious to see if FF will pass out FG though. FG seem to have a record of dropping a few percent in the last days before the election. I will enjoy the day of counting!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    It's certainly not perfect. The one that stands out to me is Holly Cairns losing her seat to SF in CSW - give that she's been a star performer and SF don't have a TD - i don't think that is very likely. The problem with his methodology (or any attempt to model Irish elections) is we simply don't have good quality local polling in this country due to our size. So his method is to get the regional breakdowns from the national polling (which are usually by province) and map those onto the individual constituencies. There are 2 issues as far as I can see with that:

    1. The margin of error increases when you use a crosstabs figure, like the regional breakdown, like that, as you're reducing the sample size
    2. It doesn't take into account any local constituency affects (as you pointed out)

    Also it's extremely difficult to model for the final seats in Ireland as the transfer system is quite complex

    Given all that though I think for obtaining ball park figures it's a reasonable start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    (should point out I'm working off 160 seats, not the 167+ we'll have if the election happens when expected. And so is that model)

    If it ends up like that, I'll probably enjoy the horse-trading afterwards more as it becomes impossible to form a Government that isn't SF/FF; with both sides trying to pretend they've no intent to do so yet slowly winding in their rhetoric.

    Yer mans models allow for an FG/FF/SD/GP government, but I'm confident the numbers won't work out like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,372 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    63, Jaysus, that is a lot.

    I'm such whoever does that website knows much more than me, but 63 still seems a lot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Second (or third, in one case) candidates might have got them 50 in 2020, remember. 37 is an artificially low base for whatever they do get to.

    Those would have been at the expense of PBP/A, SDs, GP, left wing independents almost entirely.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,329 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    If whatever model he is using is predicting (possiblty) three seats for FG in Mayo and DBS, well sticking a pin in the list of candidates would be more reliable. They'll get one in both constituencies and they'll be satisfied...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    He's got 2 FG seats in both those constituencies. That's hardly an outlandish prediction considering that's how many TDs got elected in both of them in 2020. Both will be very tough constituencies next time out for sure but they'll certainly be targeting 2 seats in both.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Two in DBS will depend on who they run; and a very favourable day at the polls too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    my mistake- just remembered that they didn't win 2 seats in 2020. Kate O'Connell lost the final seat.

    Yeah that's going to be a blood-bath next time round. 4 seats and LAB, FF, SF and GP all have sitting TDs. FG will be eyeing 2 of those but that'd be a tough ask given they only got 1.38 Quotas there in 2020.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,329 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I do have questions overall about the frequency with which the model is predicting three seats for a single party in certain constituencies. It shows this in Donegal, Dublin South-Central, Louth and Waterford for SF, and in Dublin Bay South, Dún Laoghaire and now Mayo for FG

    This seems to suggest the model was predicting three FG seats in those constituencies but he is overruling it?

    Anyway if the model is even suggesting that is a realistic possibility I don't think we can set much store by it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Can you link to that quote? I'd like to read more about that



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    3 FG in Dun Laoghaire? Are they proposing 3 FG and Rich Boy, 3 FG + SF or 3 FG + a non-left candidate? Cause none of those are happening.

    Someone needs to throw their model out and start again, not just try correct for obvious nuttiness like that.

    It had 3 FG TDs when one of them didn't need to be elected (Ceann Comhairle) but otherwise has never, and will never return that. And there's always space for a left wing TD or two.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,329 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Well apparently the most recent prediction of the model was 2FG, 1FF and 1PBP but previously it was saying 3FG and the other one going to RBB. But like you I'd be thinking FF and FG get at most two seats between them there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Reading the rest of that paragraph it looks like he realises (in March 2021) that those numbers are suspect and that he needs to change how his model works:

    ...and I want to do some rationalisation on how the model optimises candidate numbers for April’s update, which should help eliminate any three-seat wins that are noise.

    The subsequent update from April 2021 seems to confirm that that change has been made

    Not a lot to note here – this is largely due to better calculation of the FG vote split putting one of their candidates below Dara Calleary (FF).


    I'd have no issues at all with someone altering their model in the face of suspect outputs. It's no different to a scientist altering a theory in order for it to better explain experimental results. As long as that change is maintained for future runs of the model then it makes sense to implement it.


    Of the 7 constituencies that he highlighted previously as returning 3 TDs from one party that's now down to 3: Donegal, Louth & Waterford and Cavan/Monaghan is also there now as well - all for SF. Since the 3 border constituencies all have 2 TDs at the moment that doesn't seem crazy given SF's rise in the polls since the last election (and they actually had the numbers in Donegal to get 3 elected had they ran them last time around). The Waterford prediction jumps out since they only have the 1 TD there currently although, they would have had 2 had they ran a second candidate in 2020 - since they got 1.91 Quotas there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,329 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Plus Waterford is not historically particularly republican. I'd buy SF being in a with a good chance of three seats in the border five-seaters but Waterford seems out of far leftfield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I see that former junior minister, Kevin "Boxer" Moran went for a county council seat, vacated by his son, only to lose out 12-6 on a vote for the seat to another candidate. That's interesting that there's a vote like that in Westmeath. I know that a lot of councils allow the councilor, who is stepping down, to name their replacement. I hope that the son didn't resign in order for his father to get the seat - if he did then that plan backfired badly.

    link



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Each council can set its own rules for replacing Independents. Most just do the ask the Councillor procedure, DCC even allows Independents to nominate someone in case of their death but it seems Westmeath CC go for open nominations from the floor. Some councils do "countback" where the last eliminated candidate gets it.

    Party members are to be replaced by their own party - actually the one they were elected for, should they have changed. Also someone elected as an Independent who joins a party is still considered Independent in this legislation but I'd expect many councils would go to the new party first.

    Jamie Moran says he was leaving for work reasons so it might not have been a specific method to get his Dad back in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Nominations closed for the TCD by-election to replace Ivana Bacik. Runners and riders below:



    I have no idea who the favourite is. Hazel Chu would obviously be the most high profile but I think she burned a lot of bridges with her solo run to get the NUI Seanad seat in the last election. Hugo McNeill and Patricia McKenna are the only other names that I'd really recongise.

    9-8 split women: men which seems unusual but a welcome change from the norm.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    I know this one gets wheeled out every few months, but to me it’s quite stark at the moment that there is nobody to the right of Fine Gael economically on the Irish political spectrum. And that’s an increasingly large space as Fine Gael has moved further and further left (or at least populist “left”) to try keep up with Sinn Féin’s populism.

    We’re entering into a period of inflation, the likes of which may not have been seen for decades. The Government’s response is to hand people more money, and to increase the amount they’re planning to hand out every time they discuss it. The only opposition to this at parliamentary level is from those who think they should be doing the same, but with larger sums of money.

    Now you could make all sorts of arguments about energy not being a discretionary expenditure, global factors etc. But surely there is space for some sort of PDs 2.0 who could at least make the argument for looking at things like scrapping the universal nature of certain social welfare benefits (the new fuel cashback thing, child benefit, etc.) And at the same time altering tax bands to make the system fairer: bringing people into the tax net at a lower point, raising the threshold for the top band, but introducing more bands in between to make it a more gradual progression for middle earners.

    Maybe this stuff is too politically toxic for now, Sinn Féin’s brand of populism is where the votes are at for the moment, and any small party coming out with this would be on a kamikaze mission. It just seems to me that there’s a huge amount of groupthink in the Dáil at the moment, and very little choice on offer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Speaking of Sinn Fein I noticed this tweet yesterday by their finance spokesman.



    This struck me as SF trying to have it both ways. They'll attack the government for not doing anything about inflation whilst at the same time criticising Varadkar for calling for monetary policy changes....in order to tackle inflation. The Bank of England have already raised rates for this reason and the Fed have signaled that they will do so as well at their next meeting.


    I'm actually looking forward to SF being in power because right now they're peddling a bunch of easy answers (Doherty said they'd abolish the carbon tax in order to tackle inflation). Governing is all about compromises and making unpopular choices for the greater good (ideally). It's the easiest thing in the world to just sit on the sidelines and oppose all of the unpopular decisions that a government has to make.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    in a way theyre right, but they definitely will struggle when they get into government, central banks are stuck, if they raise rates too soon and by too much, they ll actually cause economic slow down, as we ll start to struggle to service our debts, in particular our private debts, this in turn would also more than likely cause us to save more, as confidence slips under such conditions, its a very tricky situation. its also important to note, most money created in both the public and private domains, has gone towards raising asset prices, and hasnt actually made it into the real economy.....

    elements of our current government will also get a chance in the opposition next time around, so theyll be able fire all sorts of accusations at sf, and some will be warranted, so.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Saw Paul Murphy on the Tonight Show panel. Discussing the Ukraine crisis. Wondered (to myself) what position/opposition stance he would adopt.

    Unsurprisingly it was the latter. Apparently he feels Nato (US imperialism) and Putin are equally to blame and Nato should withdraw from eastern Europe. 'I am not in favour of one side or the other winning' The unilateral provocations of 170,000 massed troops is unremarkable - to Paul.

    He's a disgrace to the Dail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Sounds like some good ol' false equivalency. It's incredible that these people (especially the 2 MEPs) cannot ever comment on Russia without injecting some whataboutery to do with the USA, NATO or the EU.

    If ever there was a time to unequivocally criticise Putin's actions it was yesterday. He effectively declared war on Ukraine for no reason other than he wanted to. It is the easiest open goal you're ever going to get as a politician to call that out as being wrong. If you cannot do that without resorting to some preposterous "both-sides" narrative then you're nothing but a useful idiot.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    NATO withdrawing from eastern Europe is the other side winning. The Stop the War coalition in the UK, that Corbyn is a decent player in, is adopting a similar approach. Basically, NATO/West bad therefore anyone opposing them is by default good.



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