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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Gas absolutely sets a price-setting role for wholesale electricity Europe wide, no matter what the energy mix is by country. You are way way off the mark. Sorry Charlie, but you need to do some further reading on this matter. You're flat out wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I do not know what more I can tell you Yurt. I have given you the figures and figures do not lie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You don't get how natural gas prices act as a price-setting mechanism for wholesale electricity in the European markets, and you don't want to know. You have a Simple Simon theory on the go, and you're sticking to it. I understand that and everyone reading this understands that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    The Greens really like imparting misery on people.

    I look at the price on the petrol pumps and I think...the greens and others do not care one little bit about the extreme prices. They do not care. They wouldn't care if it went to 2 euro per litre. They wouldn't care if it costs 45k for a new vw polo. They want people out of their cars at any cost.

    From their perspective, if extortionate prices are enough to get people out of their cars and onto a bike, that's fine. Who cares if the car makes their life way more easy and comfortable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    LCOE is a method of comparing the cost of production, not the value associated with the energy produced. There are other metrics used to compare the value associated with the energy produced which mostly comes down to the avoided cost by having that electricity produced. This value goes down the more renewable energy there is in the grid, and will until there is sufficient storage capacity on the grid. This storage can be dispatchable renewable (e.g. hydro or pumped hydro), batteries (although this could really only be a small amount to cover evening peaks or other short periods of under-production; They are not viable for anything other than short term storage) or to some form of H2 storage (either as H2 or further processed to eFuel of some kind).

    Encouraging demand shifting is also necessary to balance usage with production. In the UK there were a number of people using the Octopus Agile tariff, which has prices changing every half hour. For a consumer with a home storage battery, it was possible to charge this up in time periods where the price was low (and at times, negative) to cover home use during more expensive periods, or to put back out to the grid at times when the price was high. If enough people do this, then the grid is more stable and a lower amount of grid level storage is required. This doesn't solve the problem of medium/longer term storage for multi-day periods of low renewable output.

    Our grid is not at the moment capable of running in this manner, but I don't think that creating new nuclear power plants is the solution. The nuclear industry keeps saying that the cost of new nuclear is falling as they've learned lessons from previous reactor installations, but any that have been produced have come in over budget and behind schedule. If the reactors are small, then the cost per MW installed, and thus the cost per MWh produced over the lifetime of the plant goes up, and if the reactors are large, then, if installed in Ireland, they need backup power to the same extent as wind. There is also the lead time for a new nuclear plant. If a decision was made today to construct a nuclear plant in Ireland, it would probably be 2040 before there was any power generation from that plant. I think existing ones should be kept running for their design life. The German decision to close all of their nuclear power plants was, in my opinion, premature. There should have been a greater emphasis on how to store excess renewable generation prior to removing nuclear power.

    H2 costs aren't completely unknown. They are high in the absence of excess renewable power. It won't have any viability unless there is a surplus of renewable energy and a market that doesn't require excess transport of H2. H2 also has problems in it's volumetric energy density and it's unclean combustion when burned with air.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly, all the current issues whether it's low wind, plants offline, shortages in fuel supplies or price increases in fossil fuels all point to needing a massive increase in renewable generation and that's the way almost every country is going.

    You may not like it, you may disagree with it, but it is the option being chosen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Well of course its cheapest when mother nature provides the fuel but wind and solar wreak havoc on electricity grids designed for consistent predictable demand and supply that traditional power stations allow, the reality is Europe will always have a mix of gas and nuclear in the grids to fill the gaps from renewables and redundancy (its not impossible for battery backup or otherwise storage of renewables to run out during a particularly bad weather period) , gas actually being the least worst option versus oil/coal/peat but all this shenanigans with Russia and EU gas dependence might bring nuclear back into play in a big way.

    So yeah wind might be cheapest but its definitely not the best.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm not arguing that natural gas generation isn't a necessary evil at the moment, we have a suite of poor options in front of us. More I was making the point that posters were trying to turn reality on its head by pinning high energy prices on renewables ignoring all the complex variables that feed into the retail electricity price to the consumer. Not least the reality that natural gas prices are highly erratic for a number of reasons, and as a base load price-setting generation method, it's going to be the chief culprit in high electricity prices frequently (as it has been the last couple of years).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed, imagine what electricity prices would be like if we still had a load of generation using oil. As can be seen on the forecourts, oil prices are shooting up

    The sooner we can get all fossil fuels out of our energy mix, the sooner we'll have stable pricing



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,143 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    the price of fuel is all down to the Greens? are there not 2 other parties in power at the moment, why aren't they reducing the cost of fuel?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The anti nuclear claims about time, cost and schedule are all based on recent projects in Europe. It's not all by any means.

    The UAEs Barakah Nuclear power plant took nine years from ground break to first stage grid connection - and that's with it being a whole 2 years behind schedule. The obvious solution is to get the Koreans to build them. So 9 years shouldn't translate to an inevitable 2040 if the government were of a mind to prevent and exclude the usual stuffing around. And even so - 2040 is zero CO2 a decade ahead of the current 2050 schedule. How do people who are concerned by CO2 see that as a bad thing?

    If you think H2 storage will be up and running with nuclear levels of performance by 2040, you are more optimistic than I am.

    Work has been done on identifying the reasons for nuclear program cost and time blowouts and those findings can be used to minimise or eliminate them in the future. https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/MIT-study-focuses-on-reasons-behind-new-build-cost



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    low wind ... point to needing a massive increase in renewable generation

    Eh?

    This current low wind winter scenario is due to over-reliance on wind & solar power, exacerbated by fuel prices which is part political, part as response to increased demand (again, because of low wind low solar)

    The idea that this can be fixed by adding more wind turbines and solar panels is absurd.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not really. Offshore wind blows at a far greater speed, with far larger turbines, at higher altitudes, for more hours of the day when compared to onshore.

    The whole point of offshore is you can use way bigger turbines that go much higher to capture that wind. For a multitude of reasons thats not a viable option onshore

    Wind speeds at 20m height

    Wind speeds at 50

    Wind speeds at 100m

    Wind speeds at 150m




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    It's still susceptible to the same problems as onshore wind, being dependent on the weather.

    Even if its less-so, its still dependent on wind speeds, so we could be left without significant generating capacity at times of great demand (irish winters)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    True, hence the need to spread generation and supply across multiple sources and areas in relation to offshore wind specifically, all of which is being done



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What is the current wind speed at 100m, 20k to the west of Clifden? I doubt offshore is immune to high pressure systems, but if you have data that it exists in an unaffected parallel uiverse, I'd welcome the links.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Windy.com is a good resource. Current wind speed at 100m is 4kts. Same time tomorrow, it will be 14 kts, Sat 19kts, Sun 27kts and so on. Per the image below, areas of high vs low pressure will affect it




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Getting the notion that that poster may not be resident here,possibly Dinnys valet



  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭jimdemp


    Greens are always City urban dwellers, which is hypocritical. You rarely see a rural green who lives off the land and is eco friendly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    And Mummy and Daddy are usually involved in finance, strange?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,442 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    More than 40% of irielands electricity is wind generated. Where have you obtained the 3.9% figure from?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Editman


    What alternative way of getting people out of their cars would you propose, given that the necessity to reduce emissions, to which personal transport is a very significant contributor, is indisputable at this point? There's a vast amount of unnecessary driving going on, by both petrols and EVs. How do we reduce it? Ideas please.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,442 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Is there such a thing? I've never encountered a rural dweller living off the land or one that was eco friendly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,143 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    How is it hypocritical? You're less likely to drive, own multiple cars, take up as much space, have as big a house, etc. if you live in a city. You share services with others and can walk or cycle to places or use public transport. It's easier to provide to clustered communities rather than someone in the middle of nowhere.

    Do rural people really think the environment would be in a better state if everyone lived in one off houses? Can you not see how ridiculous that is?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "The division of wind throughout certain areas is quite mixed and uneven. Therefore, class 3 winds are the standard requirement for the wind turbine to produce energy. A class 3 wind has a speed of 14.3mph or 50m." https://solarwindenergys.com/what-is-the-minimum-wind-speed-required-for-wind-power-generation/

    4 kts is 7.4 kmh, so it wouldn't matter how many turbines you had out there, as you won't be getting more than 5.4 Gwhs off them - or anything at all, actually. So no, more offshore turbines is not an answer to low onshore wind speeds and windless days.

    The ESB dashboard shortly before posting.

    It's currently 0.99 % wind generation vs demand (54MW). Don't worry, sling a few more turbines up and we will be at 80% of the nations electrical energy being generated by wind. (I'm lying, but it sounds good.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Not this again. The services already exist. My house was connected to phone and power lines that have existed since those services were first put in many decades ago to service the farms on the road I live on. Even if my house had been built inside the M50, a line would have had to be run to the nearest ESB duct or pole. There - is - no - difference.

    You have this idea of roads being constructed and new lines of poles and wires being run, everytime someone builds a one off. It just doesn't happen. The service are just as shared rurally as they are in Dublin or Cork.

    And before you start with the lies about road maintenance - passenger cars do not damage rural roads. Road damage is a fourth power function of vehicle weight. Because of it's weight, a tractor driving past a one off rural house, and then back again, does more damage to the road surface than the householder's car does commuting in more than a year. A milk-tanker, or truck carrying feed, or fertiliser, going past is decades worth. A milk-tanker passes my house every day and does a couple decades worth of damage each time.

    As for water - I and nobody else - paid for a well to be drilled and for the pump and pipes. The ESB hasn't set foot on my property in over two decades.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,143 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    So you think if everyone lived in one off housing, rather than in urban areas, it would be better for our carbon emissions and for land usage etc?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    He's a vegan powered cyclist, so he can't get far, in fairnes.



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