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Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    depends if the russian exercise takes place near tea time or not



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Actually scrap that, I'm sure the Russian bombs are loud. We don't want another lump of deafness claims going in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Military hardware is costly but if we were to think outside the box a bit we can plan to improve our defence from its current placement. I would be inclined to start with a National Intelligence Organisation. We could also invest in Drones rather than attack aircraft. Navy wise patrol boats and at least one Frigate. Nato is almost certainly now an option we need to consider.

    Dan.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A large error was made a few years ago, when the new naval service patrol vessels were ordered without helicopter facilities.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think we can afford to be flippant about it in 2022. There is no imminent threat to Ireland in the short to medium term.


    It does spark some interesting conversations though. Specifically America's relationship with Ireland. At present we can be pretty confident that they would have our back, and the idea of Russia invading Ireland is rightly laughable. But who knows how the world will be in 20-30 years. America's power is declining. It's demographics are changing. Irish-Americans will become increasingly a minority and with them will go a good chunk of our soft power in the world. Latinos will be the majority in the US in the coming decades. They will have their own emotional ties to countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico etc. When the US has less power to spread across the globe, they would need to pick their battles wisely. The Russians would never touch us as long as the US is strong. But if US resources are spread thinly the Russians will smell opportunity and weakness. There's no guarantee that the US would come to our aid if Russia invaded in the future. I just think we would do well to think ahead without relying on the nice easy assumptions of the 20th Century.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    My father served in the Air Corps and was very proud of the service that it provided to and on behalf of, the nation, with the very limited manpower and resources allocated to it.

    He always maintained that the Air Corps technical and mechanical maintenance crew were among the best in the world because they kept their aircraft operational after their generally expected service lifetime, because they knew they were getting nothing else. Case in point being the Alouette helicopters that served for far longer than anyone, including the French makers, would have expected. So much so, that the company regularly highlighted the Air Corps long service and reliability experience to potential purchasers.

    Personally I think it is a shame that as a child I saw Vampire jets in service in Baldonnell and now we mainly have civilian aircraft or military trainers at our disposal. Not the fault of the air corps personnel, who squeeze every minute of service out of them to do whatever they are asked to do. I understand we will never have a full attack and defend capability, but we could certainly do better than we have - even for our own domestic requirements in maritime patrolling and national security.

    My dad still got a laugh out of this cartoon though.... it is a good few years old now, but every so often, just like long hair and flared trousers, it comes back into fashion.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    There have been suspicsions of fishing boats being dragged by submarines alright, but more suspecting UK submerged craft than Russian as far as I remember.



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    I'm guessing no.

    AFAIK most of your gunpowder type stuff has a 'use by date', so its all used up in training to keep the boys sharp. Thats what all the shooting noises in the Glen of Imaal are about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    sure every air force is using old equipment, the US is using 60 year old b52s



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    i dont think you understand how the economy works chief



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    Sure, but there is a big difference in using an old something that is still the best something to use for the job that it was intended to do ..... and having to use old equipment because you ain't getting nothing else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    It is exactly the same, superseded in the 1970s, by other planes and missiles, kept in service because its cheap and does a job

    I mean any arab country african etc all in the same boat

    What is the air corps job in the first place, basically a coast guard



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Our most glaring weakness is in the area of cyber warfare, in the sense that it's a realistic threat and something that can be practically addressed without spending billions.

    Disruption to our infrastructure and supply chain via a cyber attack in the near future - targeted or otherwise - is infinitely more likely than a traditional conflict requiring jets and tanks etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    Having examined the jokeshop report of the HSE attack, it's not an unreasoable guess that the state is woefully lacking in serious cyber security chops.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Projected to fly for another 40 years but they have received regular upgrades over Years the Russian bear is a clone of the American b29 stratofortress from 1943



  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    Old B52s are awesome and they are experimenting using civilion aircraft as standoff smart weapon delivery platforms

    The fact we only spend less than .3% on defence probably most of that is department of... with 1 PS for every 2 serving personel I consider wasteful use bet they all WFH too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    I know all about, whats your point, they keep them flying, no different



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    They are using 1960s tech because they wont be attacking anyone who can fight back any time soon so why waste any more money



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Different tools for different jobs ,flown against plenty of opposition who has the ability to shoot them down from Vietnam to Iraq ,

    The may look like 60s technology ,but most current b52s flying are modern airframes ,new engines and avionics ,a formation of b52s have the ability of wiping out a 5km square killing everything insight ,

    But with new next generation stealth bombers already flying depending on where you get your information from ,they might not see the next 40 years , but they will have the ability to do a job even if it's limited



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    Defensive frailty has long been exposed long before anything in the last two weeks.

    We, as a supposedly "neutral" nation, have for far too long allowed psychopathic hegemonic regimes to use our airspace, waters and very soil in their assistance in destabilising vast swathes of the globe through both conventional and nonconventional warfare, more often than not illegal.

    We can't defend that either.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    We've allowed 40 + countries including Russia to use shannon along with various ports ,the joys of neutrality oddly enough Shannon watch only ever sees the Americans



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    I don't care about 40+ countries, including Russia, I specifically stated "psychopathic hegemonic regimes", only one regime falls into that category, unless the Chinese have been using Shannon, which I doubt. Russia stopped being any sort of hegemonic entity back in the 80's

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    There equally as bad as each other ,but wait till China comes to the party ,


    We will be begging for help from America along with everyone else



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    My grandad was a mechanic in the air corps, and he had amazing ability to fix pretty much anything. My dad was always fascinated watching him completely taking engines/motors apart and finding a solution to the problem. Very often needing to improvise something original to get it working again. So yeah, if my grandad is anything to go by I would say they must have been very skilled at keeping those aircraft operational.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    But this is the point, when China comes to the party they are going to completely rob the yanks lunch money when they come with it.

    This whole situation with the Ukraine is so absolutely stupid from an EU/American point of view. Not only will conflict destabilize the country of Ukraine, completely wrecking it, it will also greatly destabilize Europe, especially Germany, which is de-facto Europe as a whole. Not only that, it will drive the Russian's straight into the arms of the Chinese. Which will be a future disaster scenario. There is no need for any of this current willy-waving nonsense. The best thing in the long run is to leave Ukraine be, split the divide already in the country on a East/West cultural but co-operate division and keep everybody happy, but the hungry hawks on the payroll of continuous division and conflict within the EU/American administration's seem that this current policy of driving conflict and hostility is the best way to go. The Monroe Doctrine should go both ways if the Western Hemisphere is to in any way survive. Somebody needs to inform the hawks before it's too late, or maybe they don't care, or maybe that's the plan?

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm not sure how you can seriously hang this crisis on Washington. It can't be so easily forgotten that the genesis of this crisis was Putin coercing Ukraine into tearing up a trade and association agreement with the EU - nothing to do with arms, tanks or NATO. Perhaps the Kremlin regards associating with EU political institutions or trading with the EU as a stalking horse for NATO - if so, there's a coterie of paranoid cold-war mentality holdovers occupying the halls of power in Moscow, and that's on them.

    A sovereign country chooses its own path for peaceful trade with partners of its own choosing and Putin like a jealous old boyfriend proceeds to attempt to dismantle the country.

    Now that's a bit of an oversimplification but it's a fairly accurate summation of where all of this comes from.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    You can rightly hang the current crisis and the one 8-9 years ago on the likes of Washington. Russia does not want any sort of hegemonic encroachment onto its territory straight from its own borders. That is all they care about, and quite frankly, its also fair enough. It has nothing to do with Putin. This is Russia you are talking about. The Russian people, who over half the country of the Ukraine in the east identify with. I mean, How would Washington or the people of the USA like it if, lets say, the Chinese decided to placate its own global hegemonic force akin to the likes of NATO into Canada, or Mexico? How do you think Washington or the people of the United States would react? Would they just go "ahh yeah fair enough, this sounds totally reasonable" or would they do the exact same thing the Russian nation is doing? Seriously, What's the difference?

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What's hegemonic (or indeed anything to do with Washington or NATO) about a sovereign country freely entering into to trade agreement with the EU? And what business is it of the Kremlin?

    That's what the dead hand of hegemony really looks like. Moscow coercing a neighbour not to trade with the EU on the terms it freely negotiated.

    You're looking in the wrong place if you want to seek out old-time hegemony. And it's finding its natural final expression in threats, open armed conflict, and dismemberment of a sovereign country. It's indefensible.

    The US has lots of blots on its copybook, but to pin the evolution of this desperate situation on Washington is ridiculous. I'm not sure if its this thread, but there was a head-the-ball poster banging on about CIA plots when Ukraine has been systematically picked apart by cancerous hybrid warfare with a revanchist bent, all directed from Moscow for the best part of a decade now. How on earth can people talk about the CIA when a country like Ukraine has been exposed to some of the most obvious and ugly plots from an autocrat one can conceive?

    Beggars belief



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    The entire swathe of the eastern half of the Ukraine wants nothing to do with the EU, NATO or whatever else you are having. They never have, not since the armies of the German Nationalist Socialist Front went in there and started shooting people in the head and throwing them into open lime ditches. They are deeply deeply suspicious of any other entity approaching from the west ever since then, same goes for the Russian people. They don't want what the EU or the Yanks want to sell them, so why try and push it? Its not going to work that way, only sow division, conflict and ultimately war.

    Hegemony has everything to do with it because that is how the United States of America has set itself up since the advent of World War 1. You say it's irrelevant, but it isn't, if it was irrelevant why has the United States got bases and forces strewn throughout the entire globe? Why has she involved herself in all manner of wars, conflicts and coups in every single continent on the planet? The Russians don't want any of that anywhere near them, especially on the fringes of their own borders. And like I said, that is fair enough, because the Americans, both the administration or the general population would not tolerate the likes of China doing the same to the likes of Canada, Mexico, or Cuba, so once again, why should the Russian people or half the people in the Ukraine or all of the Crimea tolerate it?

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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