The 2022 Sub3 thread

babacool · 17-01-2022 8:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486784#Comment_118486784

It does show that sub3 isn’t something to fear. All it takes is consistent training and being disciplined (especially last 2-6 weeks before race day). Having the correct weight helps already. Every pound that you carry with you can cost you a couple of seconds which adds up over the distance. Be a lean mean machine (but stay healthy and don’t starve yourself) and you will fly (if training is done correctly).

@Woody79 did you specifically focus on those PBs or did they just happen in the process?

17-01-2022 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487733#Comment_118487733

No just marathon training? Pbs were simply a byproduct. Didn't race massively. Once a month. But every race was a pb for 5 6 races in a row.

Good Times.

Trying to replicate it again this year.

We'll see.

TomD101 · 17-01-2022 12:40pm

anyone have links to different types of training plans for sub 3?

I get a plan of a guy I know, been following it for 2 years and not sure what philosophy / approach it is based on. I would like to learn more about different systems to see if I can improve what I am doing for a marathon in April before deciding whether I need to switch to a different approach in second half of 2022 for DCM.

Thanks in advance!

shotgunmcos · 17-01-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488620#Comment_118488620

Give a sample of the types of sessions and I bet someone around here can identify the method?

Swashbuckler · 17-01-2022 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488620#Comment_118488620

This might be helpful;

https://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans

babacool · 17-01-2022 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488620#Comment_118488620

What shotgun said or reach out to a coach and see if he takes you on! 🙂

TomD101 · 18-01-2022 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118489702#Comment_118489702

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118489532#Comment_118489532

lads thanks for the responses, the links is nearly exactly what I had in my head that i hoped existed somewhere.

Current plan is roughly as follows:

6 days per week
70% volume is easy runs
1 tempo run (builds up to 10 miles max pre marathon)
1 interval run (typically split tempos eg 5 x 1mile or equivalent to 35 mins of effort in a session, usually efforts not less than 800m)
1 long run at marathon pace plus (50 seconds - 90 seconds) building up to 22 miles

squinn2912 · 18-01-2022 4:22pm

Hi @TomD101 those sessions are similar enough to what I’d have always trained. Tuesday/Thursday tempo & intervals, other days easy including longer run. One year the final x miles of long run at MP.

I built my programmes myself and then got similar enough stuff from coaches. They look a bit like the plans in Advanced Marathoning but from memory those had faster long runs than what I did usually.

how have you found those have worked for you?

babacool · 18-01-2022 4:43pm

I personally go by: workout Tuesday & Saturday with long run Sunday (mostly very easy depending on fitness). Basically for as long as the long run isn’t a session in itself, I would always do it the day after a session.

ThebitterLemon · 18-01-2022 6:38pm

I’m going to try and stay injury free for another go in April.

Not confident at all but I won’t stress out if it doesn’t happen, the main thing here is to see if I can string 10 weeks together and handle a marathon.

I’ll be taking an unconventional approach to this, as I’m not sure the 2 sessions and a LR approach suit me

Best of luck everyone

TbL

E.coli · 18-01-2022 6:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495201#Comment_118495201

Looks like general format that many club runners would use to be honest. Presumably your coach has some background there or if it is someone who does private coaching for a number of clients (there are a handful of coaches that I can think off top of my head)

If you are looking for philosophies though and trying to understand the why's behind it I would suggest start with Hanson or Lydiard. These two would be based around this sort of format with steadier long runs.

Majority of good training is based around solid common elements - Consistency, progressive overreaching, recovery,the specifics tend to be marketing tools by in large so more important to look at the common elements of philosophies rather than the differentiating ones.

squinn2912 · 19-01-2022 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118496026#Comment_118496026

How are you getting on at the moment? My thinking would be don’t force it let your body dictate the training and not the other way about. If you’re ready in April great but if not then why not do another month and go for May/June?

have you a plan for your approach? Start slow and get the miles going then build in speed endurance and speed work. Good luck to you too I hope the injuries are kept at bay

ThePiedPiper · 19-01-2022 5:30pm

Interesting to see Lydiard popping up as a reference point there. A cousin of mine who was a top runner in the 80s gave me a present of Lydiards book and also Tim Noakes’ Lore of Running. Lydiard is much more concise, but Noakes also excellent. Every few years I’ll spend some time rereading these. They help build a mindset and philosophy as much as training plan.

healy1835 · 19-01-2022 6:27pm

Dick Hooper's running and coaching careers both influenced by Lydiard if I'm not mistaken...

E.coli · 19-01-2022 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501095#Comment_118501095

Ken Livingstone's Healthy intelligent training also a good reference point more modern take on Lydiard's principles.

The Lore of Running is actually a great starting point for anyone looking for background into the evolution of training

Lydiard should probably be mandatory reading for everyone to be honest as pretty much all training or methodology is either based on or built upon it by in large contingent of training methodologies (unless you go down the route of Igloi training methodology from the 50s)

babacool · 19-01-2022 8:35pm

Is it just me or are most of us (including myself to some extent) simply over complicate things by reading all those books, trying to follow those generic plans (and change them as we think we need to without having the proper knowledge on how to - unless you are a coach who knows his stuff 😁)?

i mean for the purpose of this thread: what does it take to break 3hrs? Isn’t it mostly: run, watch your weight and enjoy life?

if I look back myself, my biggest jump I made just following that simple rule. Put in the mileage and not really the pace or hard workouts. If I remember correctly, what I did was something like running 10 30k+ long runs over the course of 15 weeks. Steady mileage of around 100k per week. Tempo runs and hill repeats for strength and endurance with low risk of injury (yes, I made mistakes here of doing too many reps and too fast tempo runs!!!) but all in all, despite being 12-14kg over ideal race weight I almost broke 3hrs (I was hoping for 3:10 back then, so I was happy with a 3:01). Only after that I started over complicating it. Trying to find different plans, trying to find different sessions. Followed some, changed others not knowing what I did and started to get injured including a big one (which led me to a great coach who got me to a completely different level and build the foundation to now being able to aim for a 2:25 but that I think is a different discussion on how to get there).

so my point is, if you “just” want to break 3hrs, don’t sweat about it too much but give it time. We all have it in us! Enjoy the journey, get your mileage in. Work around your MP and don’t worry about any 5k, 10k stuff etc, add a few hill rep sessions for some leg turnover without getting injured. But my honest advice is, don’t follow a plan you got from somewhere (books, online etc) unless it is from a proper coach who designed the plan for you and not just adds you to a generic template (as some wanna be coaches simply do!). Most likely it will not suit you, you will tweak things, skip sessions/runs, get frustrated etc. I haven’t really seen anyone getting the sub3 done by following those (of course I don’t follow the entire world on strava! 😁 so there might really be some or even more than I think who did so).

of course I don’t want take anything away from those book/philosophy discussions. Just think that would be a thread/post on its own. Always love to compare ideas, pick brains and discuss reasons behind something. 🙂

E.coli · 19-01-2022 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502032#Comment_118502032

Most definitely. I think runners by in large are numbers driven over analyzers by in large.

Running is a very simple sport by in large no doubt about it and can be simple in terms of the more time you put in the better you will get. Methodology, philosophies etc are interesting to discuss but by in large make about 10% in terms of performance benefits. 90% can be boiled down to the following;

Run frequently
Vary intensities
Run consistently
Fuel adequately
Recover effectively

In terms of generic plans I would not completely dismiss them I have seen many many examples of people going to sub elite level based off these sort of cookie cutter plans (IIRC a former poster went 2.25 off effectively a JD advance plan by in large prescribed by a club coach)

I think the benefits of the additional knowledge of approaches etc simply helps give you the confidence to adapt plans, tweak sessions, adapt to lifestyles which allow a person get the most out of the training they do and keep things between the ditches) not always necessary but the over complicated can be beneficial depending on the individual

Having said that the more I read training wise the more nuanced the tweaks tend to be and more simple the approach seems (I would even go so far as to argue that at times there are more important things regarding training than the specifics of the session, group dynamic is a hugely overlooked aspect in a hyper specialized training world these days)

babacool · 19-01-2022 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502334#Comment_118502334

Exactly my saying: for this thread here “getting a sub3” keep it simple. Enjoy what you do and follow the basics (just don’t overcook sessions/paces).

if you want to go beyond that, get someone to look at you and find the right plan/approach for you. As you said, the example provided the JD plan was prescribed by coach who obviously knew him and thought this plan would suit. Perfect. I just (which is also thanks to you 😁) would not follow such generic plans anymore if I chase a time or race or target. Only reason why I would follow them (and then no tweaking) is to see how they are, what impact they have on me etc. to be able to judge them. But the moment you have a target in mind, my suggestion is: stay away from it and seek advice from a coach who looks at you and finds something that will suit you and don’t destroy you. Again: had a great coach who got me from doing those stupid things to know being where I am 😁

ThePiedPiper · 20-01-2022 2:20pm

I agree with you to an extent babacool, but I was very uneducated and fairly ridiculous in my training methods up until about 2009. Only when I started reading a couple of books, and following some advice on boards did I do more normal training. Silly stuff got me to 3:00, but also flirted with injury, whereas the times when I have done my best marathons have been much better structured.

I reckon for me to have made the next jump from 2:49 pb to low 2:40s would have needed involvement of a coach, sticking to a plan and way more mileage and commitment.

squinn2912 · 27-01-2022 8:53am

Lads have any of you any tips or tricks for managing with weather during a warm marathon?

if any of you have run Cork before can you talk about how the weather was?

babacool · 27-01-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538731#Comment_118538731

Yep. Plenty of experience. Trained during an Irish winter, went to Germany a week before at in and around 5 degrees all week only to then experience 22 degrees on race day with no wind, shade or shelter (temperatures dropped below zero next day again with snow fall!).

what I learned back then is: slow down from the start! Your body will work a lot harder and hence the pace you may have hoped for will be even harder to accomplish.

take plenty of water. Before the start and at every water station. Get one of those hats that will protect you from the sun but also let’s heat go up. Try wearing clothes that don’t really soak up water as you may sweat a lot. And most importantly: slow down. If you can pick up at the end but slow down at the start.

squinn2912 · 27-01-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541450#Comment_118541450

Good advice lad thank you. Some sudden warm days have kicked my ass in the past.

Did you alter your goal times for those marathons or pick it up in the second half?

babacool · 27-01-2022 5:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541507#Comment_118541507

Let’s just say, I learned it the hard way: I ignored the change in conditions and went out at planned pace. Man did I collapse half way through and really suffered at the end thanks to complete dehydration.

ever since I would adjust my pace according to how I feel the first few k and take on plenty of water. That said, I haven’t experienced too many of those extremes (“plenty” wasn’t related to a lot of races but more “plenty” of pain during the few it happened). It does not only apply to marathons but any other distance above 10k. At least for me.

also in general, “goal” time is a funny one. Goal time is what motivates me during training but is not how I approach race day itself. Again plenty of lessons learned there (in that case definitely in numbers!!). You should decide on your goal time about 10k into the marathon. First 10k I would always go out at previous PB pace or slower if need to (again ie if it is too warm). After 10k you will see how you feel and can pick it up a bit. Half way mark you now know how you feel and should be able to predict your pace for the next 10-15k and what would then be your overall pace if you take the avg (last 7k would be my aim to hold the then avg pace or slightly faster) if that makes sense.

Swashbuckler · 27-01-2022 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541553#Comment_118541553

Ugh - I struggle to figure out 2 + 2 when I'm racing nevermind the Good Will Hunting level of complex mathematics you outline there 😀

babacool · 27-01-2022 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541610#Comment_118541610

Trust me during a marathon you will do a lot just to pass time and not focus too much on what’s left 😂 at some point 1km will feel like never ending!

squinn2912 · 11-02-2022 2:16pm

Well lads I put a question on my log but maybe a bigger audience on in here to help me out! Heading to Cobh for a few days tomorrow. Firstly I wanna get a peep at the marathon route but being bumper to bumper through Cork City for 2 hours would drive me bananas so I’m lookin some advice (not to drive it at 5 am by the way!) - are there any particular stretches I should look at? Like if I knew where the hills were then I’d love to take a look. Still not fully committed to doing the marathon but I’m bang on target for the last monthish for where I wanna be to make that decision.

My B question is if there are any lads here familiar with the Cobh area would you be able to gimme an idea of a decent place to do an easy 10k, tempo/intervals as well please? If I could have a plan in my head going down there then it would put me more at ease! That way I can gently drop the plan into conversation tonight and see how that goes down! Thanks lads 🤩

healy1835 · 12-02-2022 8:41am

@Treviso

Treviso · 12-02-2022 10:23am

@squinn2912 Cobh is quite hilly so difficult to get a flat 10k for a tempo. Would recommend getting the cobh to passage car ferry (https://www.passageferry.ie/) and you will then have access to some great walkways that are really flat. Plus you can check out the east side of the cork marathon route.

Would recommend driving up to Hop island or Harty quay car park. From there you can run towards Blackrock castle, which takes in part of the marathon route, including the lumpy hills around the castle. A sample route like this

squinn2912 · 12-02-2022 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619689#Comment_118619689

Thanks a million lad that’s a brilliant help!!

and still ricky villa · 04-04-2022 1:27pm

Joined the sub 3 club in Manchester yesterday with a 2:55:56. 12 minutes off my PB so understandably over the moon

The 2022 Sub3 thread

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