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How many civilians did the IRA kill in the war of independence

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  • 29-01-2022 6:47pm
    #1
    Harryd225
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭


    The figures on this are very hard to find, I have a fair estimate on the amount they killed based on my own research and knowledge but I'd like to hear other people's estimates.



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    #2
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058230397/how-many-civilians-did-the-ira-kill-in-the-war-of-independence

    That is a particularly badly phrased question.

    What are your definitions of ‘civilians’ and ‘killed’?

    Do you include those accused of being informers and executed?

    Do you mean those who actually were proven informers and killed as a result of a ‘legal’ IRA process?

    Do you mean those civilians who got in the way of a bullet during a raid/battle/operation, like those at Headfort Junction?

    Do you mean those shot by IRA members but whose deaths were not sancioned by the chain of command?

    And why don’t you put up your own figures as your criterion and ask for comment?



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    #3
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Mick Tator





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    #4
    Harryd225
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551999#Comment_118551999

    It's not a badly phrased question at all, I'm talking about people who were actual civilians using the same logic applied to the PIRA on their statistics.

    The definition of a civilian under international humanitarian law are "persons who are not members of the armed forces" and are not "combatants", so it's a simple question really.

    So no I don't mean an IRA member killed for informing but I do mean an elderly lady being killed for reporting something to the police, your questions don't even make sense obviously a civilian killed by accident is still a civilian killed, and yes being killed by IRA units even if it wasn't sanctioned at top level would still count, if it didn't PIRA civilian deaths would be counted as a lot lower.



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    #5
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Since you have no access to all of the information involved, your estimate is pure speculation and is everyone else's. For instance you have no access to the records of Comdt Gen Tom McGuire's records nor those of Adj. Mick O'Brien and consequently it is impossible for you to make any accurate estimates go those killed in their command area. And I very much doubt you have access to any of the other records either. It is as simple as that.

    Given the reference to PIRA etc.... sound like more a political question with an agenda than anything else.



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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The OP is constantly trying to suggest that the 'old IRA ' and the PIRA were the same thing, the old IRA being 'worse ' so people who are anti PIRA are hypocrites if they don't have the same view of the old IRA.

    I suggest that perhaps supporters of the PIRA (like the OP) are hypocrites as they don't support today's dissident republicans...........



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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553286#Comment_118553286

    Tbf they are the same thing.....gas as fcuk to see shinners in same trap as ffg,claiming one version of ira,better than another,while all fighting for same thing



    Id be intrigued to see if OP supports the psni🤔



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    #8
    Quitelife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    However many they killed it’s small numbers if you compare how many people the british killed on our island over 800 years including the 14 shot dead by Paratroopers 50 years ago today in the streets of Derry .



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    #9
    Harryd225
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553262#Comment_118553262

    True, my estimate is little more than a guess.

    I have no agenda I'm genuinely curious on the exact number or the closest estimate based on evidence.



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    #10
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553720#Comment_118553720

    So your original "based on my own research and knowledge"' is just a wild guess and that is all it will ever be.



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    #11
    Harryd225
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554300#Comment_118554300

    It's an educated guess and doesn't make one bit of difference, I'm simply asking if anyone has accurate estimates they can provide.



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    #12
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    There has never been a major conflict without some form of civilian causaulties, from either side of the conflict. So the original question is a legitamate one based on historical inquery (albeit the question is framed in a rather leading manner). So, could posters focus on the period (War of Independence) and leave the wider speculation to the political/current-affairs fora. - Mod note.



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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Some good reading for the OP

    https://books.google.ie/books/about/The_Dead_of_the_Irish_Revolution.html?id=ItIDEAAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y


    Ordered it myself there,will be reading over next few weeks,



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    #14
    Harryd225
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554606#Comment_118554606

    Thanks, looks like a good read I'll definitely have to check it out.



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    #15
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552045#Comment_118552045

    <<So no I don't mean an IRA member killed for informing but I do mean an elderly lady being killed for reporting something to the police,>>

    That sums it up really. Not a single bit of information in response to my questions, nor have you produced your figures. Zilch. Furthermore, what is it with you people who judge everything by body count?



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    #16
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553286#Comment_118553286

    Sad really that these guys are trying to sanitize history. Seems to be a concerted effort on this Forum, one of the reasons so many of the better contributors have departed.



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    #17
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552045#Comment_118552045

    During the WOI the police force in Ireland was the Irish Republican Police, don't think people would complain about the IRA to the IRP.

    A grey area I don't see anybody pointed out yet, I would not count building contractors for the British Army & RUC as civilians, even tho they did not engage the enemy directly they were still playing an important part in the British war effort & they knew it. Just like IRA bomb-makers were not always bomb-planters, like the Dockland bomb-makers, they played a part in the IRA war effort. Of course, the way the IRA dealt with them was wrong, as a Republican myself, Teebane & Coshquin were totally disgusting, counter-productive & just needless massacres. I think they fall into the category of off-duty RUC & UDR members.

    I agree with what you say about un-sanctioned IRA civilian killings counting. If they didn't count civilians then the same would be true for RUC, UDR, Loyalists & Army killed by the IRA, as very few IRA operations were ever sanctioned by the Army Council or GHQ, even large operations like Warrenpoint, Bloody Friday & the Old Bailey bombing were only sanctioned at Brigade level, the vast majority of IRA killings were carried out on the initiative of local units.



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