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Irish businessman stopped from leaving China.

13

Comments

  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How do we know there was fraud?

    The company chairman has been convicted of fraud and is in prison.

    The government should request he be allowed leave China, on compassionate grounds, as it seems no closer to a resolution.

    I'm not sure what else we can do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    I don't think their courts are transparent or reliable, so Id have concerns about the courts findings.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You'll have to explain to me what that flag means and how it relates to this case?

    What do you propose we say to China?

    Let this man leave the country because...?



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,176 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Already on a flight out according to RTE



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Must be an unbelievable relief for him and his family.

    Should never have happened and although Coveney thanked the Chinese embassy, I think severe reputational damage has been done to China in Ireland from this sad affair.

    Post edited by Yurt2 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    While I agree with your view the damage has been done to chinas reputation here they will give zero fecks,my fear with the sudden release is we paid the Chinese a fee to release him



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "severe reputational damage has been done to China in Ireland from this sad affair"


    LOL dude, how important do you think we are? They will not gaf.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    They care quite a deal actually. China is one of those countries that bristle greatly when they feel they are affronted or maligned. Their soft power offensive, while completely clunky and clueless, is a big preoccupation of the Chinese Communist Party.

    I think the scales have fallen from the eyes of a lot of the political and business class in Ireland with regard to China from this case. There would scarcely be a mention of China in the Oireachtas bar trade matters, now deputies openly talk about Xinjiang and human rights matters.

    They don't like that one bit. See the Chinese embassy's Twitter page. Resplendant with unvarnished nationalistic nonsense, and they want a receptive home for that message.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Great news he is coming home. Delighted for his family.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Credit is due to the Dept of Foreign Affairs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I suppose it is. And it probably weighed greatly on Coveney and other senior diplomats.

    A read of the media would conclude that they kept the family in the dark for long periods, which probably heightened the anxiety and stress. But, we have to conclude there were good reasons for that as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,386 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Absolutely delighted for this man and his family!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Pretty off-colour message on Twitter from the Chinese Embassy in Dublin. Sounds like they let him go with gritted teeth.

    https://twitter.com/ChinaEmbIreland/status/1487070986876989449/photo/1

    "It is expected that he continues to fulfill his pledges and commitment and undertake his corresponding legal obligations"

    What a sh*tty message. Glad the man is firmly out of Chinese airspace. He owes China or its politically tainted legal system nothing. 3 years of his life stolen when he was accused of no crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Nobody seems prepared to give out the fine details of the case so we can make a balanced judgement on why he was being held.

    Nothing but emotional drama queens prancing about led of course by the likes of RTE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Well aren't you a ray of sunshine?

    The ins and outs of the circumstances are all more or less public domain. The Sunday Business Post and Times (Sunday edition) covered the technicalities at length.

    The long and the short of it was he was blocked from leaving China without being accused or charged with any crime. He was tangental to the commercial dispute and served as a hostage.

    The subtext: Chinese courts are beholden to party whims, and after a series stock market scandals, as a populist move the party ordered courts to crack down on stock market and financial scams that particularly affected ordinary retail investors however they have to do it to achieve results. O'Halloran had no hand or part in how this company fundraised and the illegal activities of the Chinese owner. He was however a convenient bargaining chip.

    This behavior is relatively common in China. Foreign nationals hit with exit bans in commercial disputes. We should thank our stars we have an independent judiciary because this case is a small taste of what a politically controlled legal system does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    The Chinese judicial system is irrelevant in this particular case.

    Facts of the matter are that in a lot of countries it's easy to enter but leaving can be subject to all kinds of business and/or political interference.

    We still have to maintain relations with these countries which is why Coveney was right to thank the Chinese authorities. One never knows when a similar case will arise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,381 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes correct, in some countries being held hostage is a very high risk, and china is one of those countries where that risk exists and is very high.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22



    Not interested in your twisted version.

    People were ripped off by the company O'Halloran was involved with.

    He seems to accept a responsibility and so did the Irish government..thats how they reached an agreement to pay back the money and O'Halloran was free to leave.

    O'Halloran wasn't some innocent nobody grabbed off the street in Shanghai as you and your kind would have us believe!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    EDIT:

    Not bothered actually. The man is home with his family and far away from the nightmare visited on him. Something to be thankful for.

    No point in engaging with posters who think otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,439 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I think a government with even the slightest hint of what used to be called balls would have got him home a lot sooner , it’s an embarrassment.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Such an interesting case. I wonder who will pay the 90k a month? I noticed a name mentioned among Richard's thank you's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Just listened to Senator Michael McDowell SC on morning Ireland and he's not at all happy with the back slapping Narrative. He's livid over the Governments and in particular DOFA handling of this case. He's been involved in this from the outset and is clearly appalled and does not agree in the slightest that it was a Job well done.

    He laid out the facts including the point it was infact a Chinese business who is entirely at fault re the fraud and essentially says this was a case of extortion perpetrated by the Chinese government and an Irish citizens human rights were trampled on.

    He continued, there was no need for "Quite Diplomacy", Ireland alone may not have had the power to exert pressure but he rightly points out The EU could have been brought in and more alarming, Ireland recently gained a seat on the security Council.

    Obviously we may never know the full account of the protracted attempts to release Mr O Halloran, but I for one have to wonder how its taken so long for an entirely innocent Irish citizen to be released and I'm not buying this narrative that the DOFA did all they could to expedite matters, it Would seem to me they were only anxious about upsetting the Chinese government and its disgraceful.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,646 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    "Obviously we may never know the full account of the protracted attempts to release Mr O Halloran, but I for one have to wonder how its taken so long for an entirely innocent Irish citizen to be released and I'm not buying this narrative that the DOFA did all they could to expedite matters, it Would seem to me they were only anxious about upsetting the Chinese government and its disgraceful."

    Innocence is irrelevant to the Chinese and you don't need to be a Senior Council to know possession is everything. The Chinese had possession and pissing them off or putting them in a position where they will lose face by releasing him doesn't appear to me to be a good tactic.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    And you make a fair point , but it would seem to me that despite the Back Slapping Narrative, the DOFA were extremely lax to say the least .This was not a criminal matter, Spying case etc, this was a Private business deal that went Tits up. It seems to me it was abundantly clear what the Chinese government was up too (Extortion) and its equally clear our Government could have but didn't engage the UN or the EU in pressuring the Chinese to resolve this.

    I personally found it Galling, Simon Coveney essentially thanking the Chinese government for dancing on an Irish citizens human rights and even more outrageous, the Chinese will continue to be in receipt of payment's by way of Extortion.

    Coveney didn't need to thank the Chinese at all

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    "Coveney didn't need to thank the Chinese at all"

    He certainly didn't have to. However if in six months time some other Irish citizen is in a similar situation regarding an exit visa from China the fact that he did could help resolve the matter more quickly. Real politics.

    It's about people with responsibility, like Coveney, doing the responsible thing. It's easy for someone like M. McD to criticize when they're not the ones who will have to deal with consequences down the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    As I understand it, the income the plane is earning will now be used to refund the Chinese citizens who were ripped off.

    Fair dues to the Chinese for looking after their people, and this will make others think twice before trying it on with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Richard O'Halloran had nothing to do with the fraud and was not under investigation for any crime or malfeasance in China or elsewhere.

    Why you're cheerleading having an innocent man robbed of three years of his life is beyond me. And, in a backhanded manner, trying to implicate his name in a fraud he had nothing to do with.

    The man deserves better and you need to do better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    As an aside, in early 2021, there was a leak from a Chinese server revealing a Public Security Bureau Shanghai airport watchlist of thousands of innocent foreign nationals, including children of main passengers.

    The profile of these individuals were typically business or public officials who had significant interactions with China.

    One of the articles (I can't find it after a quick search) had a about 30 or so Irish people on the list.

    I don't think anyone here would like to be on that list, knowingly or unknowingly given what happened to O'Halloran.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,648 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian



    I agree it is good that the Chinese looked after their own people, however the way in which they did it was atrocious, an innocent mans freedom should never have been used as a bargaining chip in this case.

    My understanding is China Aviation Leasing Services Ireland are to pay whatever fees they quite rightly owe to their investors



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Don't you tell me what I need to do!...a quick read through your posts shows clearly what your agenda is,and its not driven by any moral values.

    The bottom line is the company this guy is a director of fraudulently sold a plane, the buyers never got that plane...and that plane has apparently since been making an income for the company that sold it.

    While the people who bought it were getting nothing zilch dada!!



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why couldn't they have done this three years ago?

    There is a element of reputation management here.

    Ireland presumably doesn't want to be seen as somewhere you invest illegally raised funds and not have to refund the investors, and then have the gov decrying the Chinese government for their actions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,648 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    2 reasons why it wasn't done 3 years ago, one is the legal systems in china move very slowly and the other is the chinese don't care about their international reputation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,646 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    there was criminality involved. there was massive fraud involved. not that I'm saying O'Halloran was involved in the fraud but he was an officer of the company.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    He was infact a New officer and wasn't even employed by the company when this fraud occurred, which in fact had nothing to do with the Irish Leasing company, whilst not fully aware of all the facts, my impression was he was sent over to actually help Chinese investors caught up in the fraud . Again, entirely innocent and this must have been pretty clear from the outset 🤔

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,646 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    a distinction that isn't relevant to the chinese. their citizens were defrauded. they acted to ensure they were compensated. I don't agree with how they acted but that was their motivation. One question though, why didn't he sign that deal 3 years ago? what was stopping him?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I doubt very much it was within his gift to sign any agreement, then or now

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,646 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I've no idea, the man was clearly a pawn in all of this but some curious Names were mentioned over the weekend as being "Very Helpful" so to speak

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,648 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Some amount of sex was had I'd say!

    Over the weekend I mean.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,013 ✭✭✭skimpydoo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,648 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    That is a curious name, who names their child Dob?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Initials, so to speak 😏, a name one must careful not to mention , very litigious, so to speak .

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,402 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Lucky there's no corruption or strokes ever pulled in our country, not like in China



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Bit weird they asked for privacy and are not doing interviews. Late late show soon no doubt.

    I find something off about them tbh.

    His wife even updated her header in twitter to say she's the wife of Richard who..blah blah kept in China who's now now back home.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In fairness, he's been through a trauma so he might wait a month or two. He did an interview on rte btw and he sounded pretty wrecked from it all.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Per Chinese culture he would have been seen to be involved. Corruption is institutionalised in China, so replacing another person in the company, wouldn't make him innocent of the details involved. He would be seen as taking on the duties and responsibilities (and blame) of the person he replaced. That's why they didn't let him go, in addition to the consideration that they wouldn't have anyone to hold responsible if he was released.

    I don't. The Chinese don't respond well to confrontational tactics. It's never worked out all that well for the US when trying to push the Chinese government on issues related to their justice system, and the US has a lot more bargaining power than Ireland has.

    TBH I think the Irish govt were superb. They succeeded in bringing the guy home. Quite honestly, I fully expected to see him disappear into a labour camp, and not be seen again for a decade or two.



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