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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The fact that they are well behaved doesn't mean they integrate. They don't stand out like others, but they don't really integrate either, which is not necessarily a problem but at least let's acknowledge it.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't have any issues with people keeping themselves to themselves, living their life, looking after their families and keeping out of trouble.

    I'm still not sure what posters expect of immigrants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭mcgragger


    The Polish Woman next door to me for about 10 years wont even say hello. She just scowls. No effort to get to know us even on a say hello basis.

    I would expect people to try and integrate to the local society and be part of the ecosystem - Exactly what I would do if I lived abroad. You know, try to integrate with the locals and see if I could make a few friends.

    And btw I dont care where people are from however there is no sense of community when people just come and go. How is that good for society? It adds to the perception of division if you ask me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People/posters expect assimilation. It's really that simple. Integration leads to assimilation. People retain elements of their native culture, but absorb the culture of their host nation, ultimately becoming part of that culture, and contributing to the success/protection of that nation.

    That's what posters really want to see happening, because when ethnic groups don't integrate/assimilate they form expectations for the development of a society, that runs counter to what the native population wants. Once you get past the basic needs, people want their children to be raised in a culture that matches their own morals, and value systems.

    When you have migrants whose cultural values are vastly different, and they refuse to integrate, then you create pockets/enclaves where people remain different, and being different leads to discrimination/racism/etc. Not just by the native group, but by the ethnic enclaves towards everyone else. The best outcome for migrant groups is assimilation... or simply to return to their native culture when they've gotten what they wanted from living abroad.

    I realise that you, and others (the pro-multiculturalism crowd) hold to some "higher" belief in human nature, often disregarding the reality of human behavior, but the truth is that having such differences between ethnic groups reinforces racism/discriminatory practices... and that's been shown in all countries where mass immigration has been encouraged.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well that depends completely on where people are from, not all countries or societies demand that everyone knows their business!

    For example, if you went to live in Finland and carried on like people do here, they would think you slightly mad.

    And yet, it is consistently one of the best places to live, even though they don't speak to each other.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Bizarre logic.

    Finland has avoided mass immigration so far, and so, is well behind the curve of Ireland's experiences. The same can be said for most of Eastern Europe, and with the vast majority of their immigration coming from complimentary cultures (Eastern European), they already share a base culture and sense of expectations between native and immigrant groups.

    And the Fins are extremely social, and friendly to each other (and other migrant groups). If you move there, and are friendly yourself, then you'll be met with smiles. Wonderful collection of people are the Fins. You really have some really oddball opinions of other cultures sometimes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The thing is, I'm EE as well, not Polish though, and we are not culturally much different, especially when it comes to simple things like saying hello to neighbors and calling them by name. But to a lot of them (or us) the Irish living next door are the foreigners (!!!) and there is no desire to interact with them as long as the rest of polish (or whatever) community is maybe 2 doors away. This is the lack of integration, and there is no excuse to say that maybe this is the norm back home, first because it isn't, and second because it doesn't matter, we the immigrants must be the ones making efforts to change our ways if needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    You have to ask yourself at what point is it too heavy a price to pay, at the moment 17pc of our population is foreign born,in a few years at this rate 25pc then 35 pc, 55pc and on and on...by that point your country,culture,identity and social cohesion is completely butchered

    Free movement of people was always a neoliberals wetdream



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,270 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Free ‘movement’ most of us have zero issues with…but when I’ve moved, including abroad to live for work, holidays etc it’s with a return ticket and no aspirations that the locals from their pocket / kitty provide me with anything that I’m not prepared to contribute to myself.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Free movement of European natives made sense. There was a commonality to the cultures involved. However with the demographic shifts in Europe, with mass immigration, free movement has become less than it was. Oh, I completely support it within Europe, but I do think we (Europeans) should have held our citizenship or EU citizenship as something much more valuable than it currently is, and made it far more difficult for people to obtain.. even to the point of retaining free movement for those European citizens with a generational history in Europe, as opposed to simply gaining citizenship in one country or another. But then, I don't really agree with this desire to bring in countries into the EU who were never part of Europe (yup, looking at the supporters for Turkey joining).

    If 17pc of our population were other (actual) Europeans, I'd have no issue. If 25pc were (actual) Europeans, I'd have no issue. My issue remains with those who are so different, with little interest in integration/assimilation, and most likely to want to change the host culture to match their own interests. That's the worry for me... when we have 10pc African and/or 10pc M.Eastern.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lol.

    My ex was Finnish and I spent a lot of time there. I also worked with a hell of a lot of Finns. So I know them and their culture extremely well.

    Once you get to know them, you will get on great, but there's one thing you can not describe them as and that's social friendly people, as they would say themselves!

    Indeed they are wonderful people, but probably cos they keep themselves to themselves and don't be asking personal questions



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    RTE and co. there is no such thing as an undocumented migrant. Only legal immigrants and illegal immigrants.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've also spent time in Finland, and have two ex's from there (as that seems to be a qualification of some kind)... so... what? I should accept your perspective on Finnish people/culture, when my own shows them to be a welcoming culture, very appreciative of people who are friendly themselves. Every place I've been to in Finland had a vibrant social scene.

    You are, again, expanding on what was originally said, and trying to pretend that new reality is what we're arguing.

    I do notice you completely ignored my points on immigration regarding Finland..



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Actually no, undocumented migrants includes illegal immigrants.

    Another swing and a miss from your good self.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not sure what your point on immigration in Finland is about. I wasn't speaking about immigration in Finland.

    My point was to posters who seem to think that integration involves other cultures acting like Irish people. There are many different cultures even within Europe that are not like Irish people. And whether you agree or not Finnish culture is very different to Irish.

    As is Polish, they don't go around speaking to strangers either and trying to Paint them as somehow not integrating because they don't say hello to their neighbours, is just ridiculous.

    Live and let live, if your neighbours don't want to be interviewed by you, don't take offence, maybe they just don't care what you're doing.

    In my terrace of 6 houses, there are two Irish houses, one Asian, one Indian and two Eastern European. I have no idea what any of them do for a living, I don't know whether they own or rent their homes, and it doesn't matter, because they are perfectly law abiding quiet nice neighbours. No issues whatsoever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    There's no "includes illegal immigrants".

    There's no legal undocumented migrant.

    Go on there so lad, who else is included with illegal immigrants in the "undocumented"?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And whether you agree or not Finnish culture is very different to Irish.

    Where did I make that claim, bubbly? Go on... point out where I, even, suggested such a thing.

    As for the rest, it has nothing to do with what I posted... which is probably why you added it.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ok, then, show me what you read that says this.

    Prove to me that you're being genuine here, because I've lost count of the number of conversations I've had with you where you didn't actually care about what I said. You had your mind made up and that's it no matter what the facts are. It's your way or no way.

    However, if you can prove to me that you have done appropriate research into this and you have come up with those conclusions, then I'll take you on your merits and discuss it with you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    How can you dispute they are not illegal? Ask them why they haven't flown to their home country and see what they say.

    For what other reason would a legal immigrant refuse to fly out of the country?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    So you've nothing, then?

    If I set out my stall are you actually going to take it into consideration, or will you continue to just believe in your own bile?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    No you can't change my opinion so I'd save your time and stop replying to my posts if I were you.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    So why are you asking me questions that you don't want the answers to?

    And this isn't about 'opinion', this is about facts. You're wrong, here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    You're the one who started this back and forth.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Because you posted a factually incorrect statement.

    I then asked you to prove to me you are serious about having this conversation and you openly said you're not, so I won't waste my time explaining to you only for you to come back with a stupid, troll-y remark that you're so well known for.

    You asked questions when you didn't actually care about the answer. Opinion trumps facts, in your mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I'd say the argument is pointless. It doesn't matter that undocumented doesn't mean illegal, it's 100% used to refer to illegal migrants while avoiding the word illegal because words hurt feelings.

    Case in point: technically, since Ireland doesn't have a proper population record system with a national ID and all that, all EU migrants that don't apply for PPS numbers or any other Irish paperwork are undocumented. However, when they are referring to undocumented migrants it's never about them, it's about non EU migrants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,434 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Same experience here with Finlanders, worked with a good few of them over the years, friendly outgoing people, I've never heard a wrong word or had a bad experience with them, and to this day, I remain in contact with most of them. I have several invitations to go and visit, and they have visited me here in Ireland.....welcome any time!!!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Got to keep those GDP growth numbers up though. Who cares about trivial little things like social cohesion and happiness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,105 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ireland will end up with the same social issues that America, the UK, Belgium, Sweden, Germany and France have now.

    There will be studies done on it and it will be deemed to be Irish people's fault. Rinse and repeat...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    Well I think you might be surprised that a lot of the people you think might be on your side would rather have little to no EE's in Ireland. As has been said the last time I brought up EEs some of the replies were "well they are ok since they are going to go back to EE eventually" lol. The main issue a lot of the out of touch racist people here have is the skin colour of the migrants first and foremost. But if they somehow got their way and got all non whites out of Ireland they would be coming after EE's next, in fact some of them already do. Obviously these people are just a fringe group online that the Irish public mock and laugh at when it comes to elections as we see with their heros Gemma O Doherty and the National party, who are the laughing stock of Ireland currently but you're standing beside people that would happily kick you out of the country if they are being honest.



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