What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

I'm not interested in having people on my side...but we need to be able to have a honest conversation without being accused of racism or xenophobia or this-or-the-other-phobia. We need to be able to say that there are indeed some estates where if you hear English it's usually from non white people. Or that the current level of immigration is unsustainable. Or that multiculturalism generally means inferior and dangerous cultures. Or maybe we're wrong, but this is a conversation that should be happening.

we need to be able to have a honest conversation without being accused of racism or xenophobia…

multiculturalism generally means inferior and dangerous cultures.

It sounds like exactly what you’re getting is an honest conversation. I can understand too why you don’t like it, precisely because it’s an honest conversation.

If you object to people pointing out that your arguments amount to nothing more than racist, xenophobic nonsense talk, then you don’t want an honest conversation, you just want people to validate your opinions.

And if you stared at people like the Finns people would think you were either looking for a fight or a bit odd.

Don't go drinking with them if they are on a bender.

Oh and they do know how to have fun and how to drive.

Were they in the police by any chance 😏

More Irish people will begin to really understand why the British voted to get out of the EU. But even then we see more and more boats coming across the Channel, increasing every year, never ending, even in January. There could be 100,000 this year if the current rate keeps up, and the criminals arranging for this people smuggling are just laughing at us all.

No doubt you have lived there in your imagination.

I dunno who you talk to but I have similar conversations with immigrants and Irish people alike many times. It’s not the only thing we talk about obviously, any more than immigration isn’t the only thing I’m sure either of us have any interest in discussing online.

When your starting point though for any conversation relating to immigration is that anyone must accept the premise that multiculturalism generally means inferior and dangerous cultures, I have no doubt you understand why anyone would perceive your position as racist, xenophobic, or both.

It would be dishonest to claim you don’t understand why anyone perceives your opinion the way they do, when that’s exactly the purpose of the way you choose to express your opinions about immigrants.

From my own experiences of immigrants, our cultures are quite similar - traditions, beliefs, customs, even politics (immigrants with liberal views grate just as much as Irish! 😁). The most fundamental difference often comes down to languages - I speak several, they speak several, but neither of us are familiar enough with the languages each other are familiar with so those occasions can be a bit trying both for me and for them.

Sometimes it has hilarious consequences though, but depends on your sense of humour what you do or don’t find hilarious. By way of one example I was invited to the Communion of a friend’s child, and I won’t lie I felt rather intimidated by the fact I stuck out like a sore thumb among a party of about 150 black people. There was a guy barbecuing lamb chunks and I commented that he should use a tongs rather than his fingers to turn the meat so he doesn’t burn himself. “Tongs are for white people!” he joked. “Racist prick!” says I joking. We both knew it was a joke, but the horrible thing about exchanges like that is there are a vanishingly tiny minority of people who would leap on that to claim it was an example of discrimination or racism against white people, or a demonstration of their dangerous and xenophobic attitude, people who need to portray themselves as the real victim.

It’s that sort of insidious shyte that people simply can’t relate to, and it’s coming from people who claim immigrants are a threat to Irish culture and society and all the rest of it because they don’t fit in and they don’t want to participate in Irish society and all the rest of it, and it leaves me wondering well what constitutes ‘Irish culture’ for them, or ‘fitting in’ for them? Immigrants recognising their place beneath them or something? They’re going out to work in the morning and their foreign born neighbour rushes out their door to greet them with “Top o’ the mornin’ t’ya, agus go n-éirí an bothar leat!”… I just don’t know what standards they expect of Irish people, let alone people who are not Irish, or people who immigrated to Ireland and become Irish citizens.

Their arguments are all very vague declarations that appear to exist outside of any context in relation to Irish society, International Human Rights Law or simply displaying humanity towards others, the very thing which they argue is lacking in the cultures they’re critical of. To claim one culture is superior to another is a ridiculous argument because it doesn’t exist independently of culture - it’s circular reasoning, and anyone from any culture could argue the same of the culture they come from in opposition to other cultures. It reminds me of the lads in work who constantly rip the piss knowing how anxious I get about things which I can’t relate to, like my irritation at rush hour in Ireland, and to coin a phrase by Croc Dundee - “that’s not rush hour”, they point out, sending me YouTube videos of this sort of craic -

Pricks 😒

I didn’t miss your earlier post? Your people face plenty of accusations of having taken all the jobs, women and houses already. Do you imagine people who make those sorts of claims care much for making any distinction among individuals? They don’t care, as much as you don’t care about making any distinction between individuals, lumping them all in under the culture which you have determined is detrimental to Irish or even European society on the basis of everything negative you can point to as being their responsibility.

You’re ignoring the fact that we already have laws in Europe which not only prohibit, but punish that sort of behaviour. We don’t for example prohibit Americans from coming here on the basis that male genital mutilation is a common practice in American culture, completely distinct from any religious practices. It’s one reason I’m thankful I was raised Catholic in Ireland 😂 Most people I’ve talked to from cultures which practice these traditions, don’t see it from my perspective, and I understand why they don’t, but they are willing to adhere to Irish laws regarding the practice. A tiny number of people aren’t, and when they are caught, they are punished, according to our laws, not theirs.

You mention people who don’t share our European values, but you yourself don’t share our European values, which are fundamentally based upon recognition of personal and individuals freedoms in law, ever since the Enlightenment, with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights being a more modern conceptualisation of the same concept. There’s plenty of discussion as to whether the principles or ideas contained in the declaration actually do apply universally, precisely because they’re based upon Western civilisation and Western ideas and culture, or European values, if you wish to put it in those terms.

I wouldn’t accuse you of being racist or anything else, because that’s just silly and it serves no purpose only to antagonise people and claim some sort of moral superiority. No need for it IMO, but the same accusations you make of others could easily be pointed back towards yourself in that you don’t want to integrate, and within your own community you’re responsible for festering hatred and radicalisation of others, and for what?

Because you can’t stand the fact that they are entitled to the same rights and freedoms as everyone in Western society? Isn’t that the basis upon which you make the claim that Western society and culture and values are superior to everywhere else? Because without it, Western society is no different to the societies and cultures you’re critical of, and surely it must explain why people in those societies see themselves as having better prospects in the West?

You can’t blame people from those cultures for their failure to intergrate into society when they’re prohibited from doing so by Governments policies which you claim are far too liberal and progressive and permissive, because the reality of the situation independently speaks for itself - immigration, law and social policies do not favour immigrants integration into Western society, which is why many of them end up in poverty on the same level as Irish people who are already living in poverty.

That’s how you get millionaires like Peter Casey latching onto middle-class resentment sentiment and milking it for all it’s worth, while anyone who actually knows of Peter Casey before he became a household name is well aware of his pedigree -

What has been your most extravagant purchase and how much did it cost?

I bought a farm in Derry 10 years ago for £1.4 million, back in the days when that was a lot of money.  

I tend to lose everything, so the most expensive thing I own is my car, a Jaguar XJL Supercharged Supersport. I had to buy a Jaguar as they are owned by my largest client, Tata. American Express told me that I hold the world record for the most lost credit cards, and that I am so far ahead that no one will ever catch up!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/me-my-money-peter-casey-former-dragon-s-den-presenter-and-ceo-claddagh-resources-1.2587076?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fpersonal-finance%2Fme-my-money-peter-casey-former-dragon-s-den-presenter-and-ceo-claddagh-resources-1.2587076

His largest client btw, Tata Motors, is a subsidiary of Tata Group, whose chairman at the time was an Irishman of Indian origin by the name of Cyrus Mistry -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Mistry

To think there are people here who swallow Casey’s whole “man of the people” shtick whole, without any critical analysis whatsoever, is far more frightening than the much more remote possibility that Ireland as they know it, will be destroyed by illegal immigrants any time soon 🤨

I know you’re joking, but the joke is neither on them nor me, because what you’ve missed is the point that the facts don’t matter; what matters is what people believe, in much the same way as you believe multiculturalism generally means inferior and dangerous cultures. Historically speaking the cultures which have been in any way dangerous to other cultures, have been colonial types who imagined it was their duty to impose their values on other people, ‘the white mans burden’, as it was termed by a famous English author (born in British India) -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

That’s not just a figure of speech btw, it was the motivation and justification for the expansion of an Imperialist Empire.

You’re also ignoring one of the underlying fundamental principles upon which our European values which you claim to hold so dear are based - the presumption of innocence. By suggesting that we don’t have what in your view is ‘common sense’, you’re undermining one of our own European values which recognises that all people are born with the right to the presumption of innocence -

https://www.ibat.ie/downloads/Sample_notes/Legal%20Studies/Criminal%20Law%20-%20Cliodna%20McAlee.pdf

The most recent, and arguably most high profile terrorist threat has come from an Irish citizen so claims that anyone who violates our laws should face deportation seems redundant. As an aside, that generally displaces the problematic individual, as opposed to rehabilitating them, also one of the core values or principles of European and Irish law.

I make no assumptions about you whatsoever other than the fact that you have the same right to the presumption of innocence as anyone else. What others may claim about you based upon your ethnicity or country of origin (I gather you’re an immigrant from Eastern Europe), is something you should take up with them. You’re clearly not unaware of it, and yet it’s the same motivation drives them to assume and conclude your participation in Irish society is a danger and you bring an inferior culture with you so your freedom to participate in Irish society should be curtailed for the protection of ze natives.

For what it’s worth though, I reckon you’re alright, be an awful shame if you were to be assumed guilty by association with the sort of thug who would think it’s acceptable to abuse immigrants who are just trying to make a living for themselves and their families in Ireland -

https://www.thejournal.ie/racism-ireland-5-2916433-Aug2016/?amp=1

Just because people come from a place where certain things are practised that doesn't necessarily mean that they are in support of those things. Being racist towards a person because they come from a certain culture then is completely disgusting. And what do you say to people who didn't want EEs like yourself and voted for Brexit on that basis entirely. There are many examples and interviews online I can point to where people are complaining about EEs and don't want them in the UK so voted for Brexit. There are plenty of examples of people in this country complaining about EEs and how they affect housing, jobs, etc etc as they are the largest number of migrants here. As I said before and can quote to you here a post where someone says EEs are ok because they are going to go back to EE lol. A lot of the "Irexit" stuff comes from people who want to curb and reduce the amount of EEs, like yourself, here.

Fully agree on both.

The thing is we do get people that support those practices and we do get people that bring here with them the evil aspects of their culture - and saying this is neither racist nor disgusting.

And you can stop worrying about my hardships as an EE here, as I have none :)

Many of the criminals involved are already living in the UK, rather that it's all done on the France side. So the damage has already been done and leaving the EU isn't enough to sort this out as it's already way too late for that. Resentment over these issues has been building up for decades which is why the UK left the EU in the first place. I find it laughable there are remoaners scoffing at the fact the UK aren't in a position to do much about it because it is their fault, as proponents of the EU, they can't.

There is a resentment under the facade that is ignored .