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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    it should also be noted the majority of people who were opposed to the war were not opposed because they disbelieved the WMD claims, next to no one believed that


    Speak for yourself. That's blatantly false revisionism. It was clearly obvious at the time, that the WMD stuff was nonsense and simply the flimsiest of pretexts for Bush to do what he was going to do anyway. This was proven when the UN sent Hans Blix into Iraq and he came back and said there was no evidence of any WMD. All they found were empty canisters. They simply ignored him and invaded anyway.

    The fact that people knew that the whole thing was built on a lie made it all the more infuriating. That is why millions of people took to the streets in protest. They were incensed that they were being taken for fools. In contrast millions of people didn't take to the streets when they invaded Afghanistan because the reasoning behind that invasion was clear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭Stanley 1


    Putin has a habit of putting FSB agents into the Duma after they perform dirty/murderous deeds overseas, he can reward them financially, he can portray them as heroes of the Motherland but most of all no deputy of the Duma can be extradited and Putin can say, that's the law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    FAIR is a US non profit that are based in NYC. They scrutinize US media for distortions since that is where they based. Does that make them "anti US"? Criticizing New York Times, Washington Post and others is anti-US ?





  • Has the word 'imminent' lost all meaning?

    Is it the new 'literally'?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    So even though the majority of people in the UK supported the Iraq war, most people disbelieved the main reasons for starting the war in the first place? This is clearly delusional revisionism by yourself, which is pretty actually pretty common if you look at the article below.

    You also are acting on the belief that the people who opposed the war did so because they disbelieved CIA/government claims, which is completely false.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    You are the one who has constantly been tweaking the history on the Iraq war here so you can do a "sure they're all the same, sure isn't it all propaganda and bias and lies and we can't ever know what to believe" poison the well effort on media in democratic countries. Really Iraq shouldn't be under discussion anyway (and unfortunately I've now contributed to that too, by posting instead of just reading 🙁).

    You know little about Ireland, likely not much about a few of the other European countries where the governments and people of the time both opposed the Iraq invasion either. "The West" this, "the US" that, and then "the UK" the other. Sure I suppose we're all the same, all Westerners too from a certain pov located somewhere east of Poland. Your source says 54 % polled in the UK were pro the war at the time it started, hardly a ringing public endorsement of that policy in my book despite the UKs involvement and all the efforts to sell the war (that got exposed fully shortly afterwards with resulting further falls in support as also discussed in your link).



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Yeah stop living in the past when it comes to 2014 and annexing pieces of land! Now let's all get back to present day and the Iraq situation 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    And where have I denied any of that? I claimed that the majority of people who were opposed to the war were not opposed because they disbelieved the claims of WMDS.

    Here's a good article on the subject, worth a read, it also talks about how most of the blame was pinned on Bush as if he masterminded this whole invasion for his own gains. Bush was a complete moron he was little more than a puppet having his strings pulled by the people behind the scenes.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/iraq-war-media-fail-matt-taibbi-812230/amp/



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    That article you linked isn't exactly the even-handed looked behind the curtains that it's portraying itself to be though. It engages in exactly the sort of selective editing that it itself is accusing those media organisations of in order to portray things in a certain slant.

    It's basically the Clare Daly/Mick Wallace hard-left view of things where everything the USA does is bad and everyone who opposes them is therefore good. I also noted that a lot of the other pieces written by that author are pro-Maduro pieces on Venezuela which is more of the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    That article and study is specifically talking about the UK and USA. I know that they mostly supported it I remember that.

    I'm talking about the wider western world. In places where the majority of people got to see events in a clear eyed and balanced way and realised that the whole thing was a farce. People were protesting all over Europe and in places like Australia and right here in Ireland. The French and Germans flat out refused to support the war (leadiing to the ludicrous "Freedom Fries" episode in the USA).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    They link to their sources. One small point of difference being that FAIR are tiny non-profit, whereas the media organizations they criticize are monopolistic, massive, for-profit companies that have gargantuan budgets and play favoritism with companies, people and personalities in positions of actual power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Derkaiser93


    For Harry. The Ukranians last night seem to think there's a threatening Russian force on their borders. And they also seem to agree with them spoofers in the U.S about the numbers of them. They also ask Russia what theyre doing there. Once again Harry, why do you think there is Russian forces surrounding Ukraine on three sides?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Boris has arrived in Ukraine 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Did i read a post about Russian media Earlier if people wanted to know what was really happening in Ukraine.


    All Russian media is controlled by the Kremlin there is no freedom of press or opposition to Kremlin opinion,

    It's all nato has surrounded Russia and are preparing to invade only putin is stopping the Nato tanks from smashing through the border and racing straight to Moscow and forcing freedom on Russians .

    The ukraine narrative is of the far right taking over ukraine and actively carrying out Genocide of the Russian population in Ukraine ,and regularly report how separatists have found new mass Graves in eastern Ukraine



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    As I said before, what the Ukrainians are disputing is the Western narrative, that the Russians have put those troops there as they are preparing to invade, I've been claiming the Americans and British are hyping the situation up and making the threat seem far worse than it actually is, you and other posters have constantly made things up claiming I am saying there is no threat at all.

    As The president said himself in his interview on Friday, "The interpretation in the West and specifically the media campaign, the scare about an imminent Russian invasion, should be viewed carefully, This narrative is fed by nameless, anonymous officials to the media, while it’s far from clear that this is an accurate description of Russian plans".

    Yet you and other posters do not know how to argue with this very valid point and claim I am saying that there is no threat at all, I don't believe an invasion is "imminent" and I don't believe Russia are "currently planning a false flag attack against their own people" as the intelligence agencies of the UK and US and their governments are claiming. Not that these points matter, you and the rest will make up your own conspiracies that nobody believes in your next post and then try and use it to discredit the genuine questions of the narrative by me, Russia, China and even Ukraine themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Harryd225

    The Ukrainians are disputing is the Western narrative,


    No ,

    Your interpretation



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Protoman





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭rock22


    If Biden will give Putin the assurance regarding Russian security and live up to the promises made in the 90's by NATO then the matter would be resolved overnight.

    The fact that NATO now reneging on those promises made regarding expansion and moving troops to positions to threaten Russia makes it extremely difficult for the Russians to have any trust in the West.

    However not to worry, Boris Johnson is heading to the area and as we all know UK prime ministers , especially the present one, can always be trusted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭Stanley 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @rock22 Biden will give Putin the assurance regarding Russian security and live up to the promises made in the 90's by NATO then the matter would be resolved overnight.


    The fact that NATO now reneging on those promises made regarding expansion and moving troops to positions to threaten Russia makes it extremely difficult for the Russians to have any trust in the West.


    Sorry never happened



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Six ships from the Baltic and Northern fleets in the Med at the moment with 60 tanks and 1,500 troops on board heading for the Black Sea.

    Various Naval exercises, convenient for Russian ships not to be stuck in relatively land locked home ports.

    100,000+ troops along Ukraine's border. Why not Finland or China's border.

    Equipment moved from the far Eastern end of Russia 9,000km to where, oh yeah, Ukraine's border.

    Reservists equipment has started to move.

    Medical supplies moved.

    Troops living in tents in the field in January.

    Not to mention the already established occupation of Donbas and illegal annexation of Crimea.

    Cyber attacks on Germany's fuel supplies.

    And much more...

    Nope, Putin's definitely not going to invade, not a hope, never happen.

    🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,894 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    None of your post actually articulates what they are doing there.

    Despite being asked I think 8 times now in two days.

    Why are over 100k Russian troops on multiple Ukrainian borders

    Why.

    Is there an immediate threat to Russia? Perhaps they can ask the EU for friendly assistance for this immediate threat to Russia.


    Why would they be there? It doesn't make sense maybe you can help us understand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    It's very possible to be partisan without resorting to lies. All you need to do is be selective about what information you choose to highlight or omit details that don't suit the narrative that you are trying to portray.

    That article is full of that kind of sleight of hand. Here is a paragraph about the Crimean referendum in a section where the narrative subtext that he's driving at is along the lines of "It's overwhemingly Russian anyway"

    The peninsula—82% of whose households speak Russian, and only 2% mainly Ukrainian—held a plebiscite in March 2014 on whether or not they should join Russia, or remain under the new Ukrainian government. The Pro-Russia camp won with 95% of the vote. 

    All of that is true. He pulls a few tricks though:

    • He used the native speakers stat to categorise the makeup of the population. Had he used the ethnic breakdown (which is often more of a reflection of how people see themselves - for example Irish people who speak English don't generally self-identify as English), the numbers would have been dramatically different: Russian: 67.9%, Ukrainian: 15.7%, Tatars: 12.63%. The Russians are still in the majority but it's not as overwhelming as the 82-2 that he reported. Also, notice how he ignored the Tatars language (10% for what it's worth). The only conclusion I can draw here is he picked the stat that fitted his narrative.
    • Speaking of ignoring them, he neglected to mention that the indigenous people of Crimea, the Tartars, boycotted the referendum in protest at potential Russian rule. Now even had they decided to vote the referendum result would have been the same as they were a minority but the result would not have been the resounding 95% that he uncritically reports here.

    That's just one paragraph in one section. The whole piece is full of that kind of thing. He's clever so it's subtle. You'd need to do some work if you weren't familiar with the subject matter to realise that he's not giving you the full picture - ironically enough considering the whole premise of the website appears to be a critique of media bias.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Great post on misinformation by Russia, what I disagree with is that most people on here seem to think Russia are the only ones who engage in that sort of behaviour, the Americans do it more than anyone else, they were completely fabricating the Libyan situation to hide that fact that what they were actually doing was backing a minority of hard-line extremists so they could reach their actual goal of regime change under false humanitarian concerns.

    They are using similar misinformation tactics to portray the view that the build up of Russian troops on the border is because they are planning "an imminent invasion" and are "currently planning a false flag attack against their own people as a pretext for the invasion", when there are numerous possible reasons for the build up of the troops on the border.

    As the Ukrainian president has said himself, "The interpretation in the West and specifically the media campaign, the scare about an imminent Russian invasion, should be viewed carefully, This narrative is fed by nameless, anonymous officials to the media, while it’s far from clear that this is an accurate description of Russian plans".



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What are the numerous (your words) possible reasons for a troop and material build-up of this scale if an intention to invade isn't one of the courses Putin intends to take?

    Mass picnic retreat for the Russian army? Camping practice? The barracks facilities all over Russia elsewhere are getting fumigated?

    Let's hear it Harry, because if an invasion or the threat of invasion isn't what's going down, this concentration of war material and troops really takes some explaining.

    I'll say it again, your brain is hijacked



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Derkaiser93


    You literally said in your post earlier on that the Ukrainians dispute the numbers on the border even and that the west are exaggerating. Ive sent you a video there of the Ukranian UN envoy backing up those numbers, clear as crystal. And as he asked in that very speech to the Russians, what are those troops, weapons systems and vehicles doing there? He says himself Ukraine do not trust Russian claims that they do not plan to invade. This is from Ukraine. Youre completely backtracking now.

    If all these military buildup, including in the sea isnt for an invasion, or the absolute threat of an invasion then what is it? You said yourself they could annex eastern Ukraine regions. that is an invasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Yes Libya, another ‘humanitarian’ war when the UK used, yes used the hardline Libyan Islamic Fighting Group to overthrow Gadaffi.

    These UK based jihadists were allowed to travel unhindered back and forth between the UK and Libya and as assets were obviously known to the authorities. This terrorist group went on to commit the Manchester Arena atrocity.

    No doubt the media described these jihadists as ‘rebels’ and ‘activists’.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    And the magical mystery conspiracy theory tour is off to Libya now lads.

    Looks like it's calling at all stations except Russia for Fudd and Harry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    My brain is hijacked how? I'm literally just listening to the concerns of Ukraine and other countries who claim that the Western narrative on the build up of troops is far from clear in being an accurate description of Russia's plans.

    I really don't know much about it as I doubt any of us do so it's hard for me to say what the build up of troops is all about, I guess the situation could be compared with the Cuban missile crisis, which escalated into an international crisis when American deployments of missiles in Italy and Turkey were matched by Soviet deployments of similar missiles in Cuba, there's all sorts of games being played by Russia and the USA behind the scenes I don't see how people on here are claiming to know it all and they know exactly what's going on, it could possibly be just some sort of warning to Ukraine over their strengthening relations with US and they actually have no plans of invading.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    What are Russian forces doing in Libya exactly .....??????



This discussion has been closed.
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