Fake meat

Curse These Metal Hands · 01-02-2022 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567976#Comment_118567976

I've yet to see the real life preachy vegan that people complain about. It's always meat eaters that seem to obsess over what people choose to eat, in my experience.

AllForIt · 01-02-2022 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568181#Comment_118568181

Well, sorry to shock you, but I'm perfectly happy for people to be vegan especially on ethical grounds. Ethical in respect of how animals are farmed. I'm totally against the slaughter of young piglets as well. And I am considering adjusting what meat I buy as it happens especially in respect of pigs.

On health grounds though, I won't have it that vegans say they are 'healthier' than meat eaters. That is total nonsense and a different discussion altogether.

magicbastarder · 01-02-2022 11:36pm

my wife is a veggie (and is a far better cook than me anyway) so the only time i ever really eat meat these days is if we're eating out or ordering in; i haven't had beef in probably six months, pig products would just be what would be in pepperoni or similar on a pizza, and i'd generally have a chicken burger in a burger joint, or with whatever thai or indian dish we'd order in. i don't think i'm missing all that much; the biggest hurdle was getting used to and finally liking mushrooms. when i was growing up, it was really only slimy-feeling button mushrooms we'd get and i'd almost gag at the texture. but a good juicy portobello mushroom makes an excellent patty in a burger.

AllForIt · 01-02-2022 11:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568146#Comment_118568146

The problem with red meat, is that it is marbled with fat, animal fat. There is nothing wrong with red meat per se. So one can't say 'meat is unhealthy' because red meat has this marbled fat problem. If you look at mince meat, which is sometimes pink when it has up to 20% fat, that is unhealthy, I agree. But it's not the meet that is unhealthy, it's the animal fat in it that is unhealthy, in exactly the same way palm oil is unhealthy and a fat, which isn't meat.

If you have an issue with digesting meat then that is your personal issue. It is not an issue across the board.

As far as you say about micro plastics and fillers and all that, that comes under the general category of 'unhealthy meat'. But all I'm saying is that meat per se is not unhealthy.

I'm sorry to hear about your losses, but you cannot show those deaths are due conclusively to eating meat. At absolute best you can say don't eat red meat as a precaution and eat chicken instead, which is very lean. I hardly eat red meat myself, purely down to the fact that the best cuts, which have the least amount of fat, are the most expensive.

That's all :)

fryup · 01-02-2022 11:49pm

mince Quorn is great put it in a Bolognese sauce and you wouldn't know the difference 😐️

gary550 · 01-02-2022 11:53pm

Mad how they are pushing people to move from a 1 ingredient food to a food that's made up of over processed absolute sh*te (that's loaded with seed oil). In realistic terms it's nothing more than large corporate soul suckers capitalising on stupid people's ignorance.

Human consumption of high quality, decent meat & organs is what built the world.

You can take my steak from my dying hands eu bureaucrats!!!!

EmmetSpiceland · 01-02-2022 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568273#Comment_118568273

Not sure you could call men who get so worked up over things that will never happen, or who are so fragile that everything feels like an attack, “manly”.

Snowflake would be a much better term. Angry little snowflakes.

Ubbquittious · 01-02-2022 11:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568326#Comment_118568326

I'd definitely know the difference

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 12:03am

You can take my steak from my dying hands eu bureaucrats!!!!

not sure if serious.

anyway, i suspect if you did examine the diets of people who 'built the world' you'd probably find their diet contained less meat than a modern western diet does.

in ireland, it's been falling for the last 20 years (based on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption )

kowloon · 02-02-2022 12:05am

Indians seem to do the best veggie food. Sit down Indian places, specifically. @[Deleted User] is right about the spices. More traditional Irish food doesn't hold up well against it.

SamStonesArm · 02-02-2022 12:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568273#Comment_118568273

I think his skinny jeans might be a little to tight for him and his man bun has split ends. Wouldn't worry about him. Enjoy whatever food you like .

Akabusi · 02-02-2022 12:09am

Quorn chicken burgers are delicious. Remind me of the dirty burgers I used to have in my youth.

Gant21 · 02-02-2022 12:11am

I would turn vegetarian that eat that faux meat.

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 12:17am

my uncle was a bank manager, back in the day when if a business asked for a business loan, he'd actually often go check them out himself to see they weren't a fly-by-night operation.

he once went to visit a factory processing meat, and didn't touch a sausage again for years afterwards.

i guess what i'm wondering, is whether people who won't eat 'fake' mince, will they also refuse to eat sausages?

sporina · 02-02-2022 12:17am

I studied Nutrition for 4 years and I can still hear my prof.. "we are by nature hunters & gatherers.. Paelo is the way to go health wise..

But eat less meat - protect the environment - maybe.. but how much energy does it take to produce soya (dairy alternative) milk? look into it.. lots and lots..

Its swings and roundabout.. on another note, health wise.. no way would I eat meat free meat.. check out the ingredients list - you think your gut was made to digest that? calcium chloride/acetate etc.. ekk.. I think not!

As my prof said... eat as varied in colour and as minimally processed as you can.. so thats what I do.. fresh fruit, veg, meat, fish, eggs, nuts, chocolate (cos life's too short and something's gonna kill ya)..

SupaCat95 · 02-02-2022 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567773#Comment_118567773

In all fairness people who eat in McDonalds and Burgerking arent the sharpest of tools in the shed.

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 12:42am

All food additives sound suspicious when you refer to them by their chemical name, e.g. calcium chloride above. If people didn't generally know that salt is sodium chloride, they'd be similarly suspicious.

Cf. The parody about calling for dihydrogen monoxide to be banned because it can be dangerous.

gary550 · 02-02-2022 12:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568387#Comment_118568387

It contained less (read nearly no) seed oil too!

I think if you did examine the part meat consumption had to play in human evolution you'd quickly discover that it would have been biologically implausible for humans to evolve such huge, neuron packed brains on a plant based diet and in such a space of time. Some sources here & here.

Can't argue that people eat more meat than people further down their lineage, but then again we eat a whole lot more of everything!

The shift in attitudes towards meat I'd partially blame on the bad rep poor quality meat has given meat. You also can't ignore the ethical stance some people have taken, the same type of people who would quickly dethrone themselves from their high horse if they realised the kind of ecological impact having all humans on a plant based diet would have.

02-02-2022 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568322#Comment_118568322

Once again you’re picking me up wrong , I never said digesting meat was a problem “across the board” I specifically said it was ME who has a problem digesting red meat, not the entire human race .

And I myself am not saying colon cancer deaths are due “conclusively”to eating red meat. That’s why I backed up what I said to an article on the link to red meat and colon cancer (cancer.org) from people who actually study it .......there is a definite link. That doesn’t mean that every colon cancer can be traced back to red meat but my ex partner who died in Oct 2021 after only getting a diagnosis in March 2021 was a huge fan of red meat. Maybe he was always going to get cancer ........who knows .

I’m also not talking about the fat content of red meat , that’s not the biggest issue when it comes to health . It’s that fibrous red meat is one of the hardest things to digest and stays in the digestive system and colon longer than any other food , whereas beans, peas, pulses, veg and fruit pass through much quicker so less toxins hanging around inside us.

I dont like any any of the meat substitutes, they’re heavily processed .....I love mushroom burgers, chickpea burgers and beetroot burgers though & make a lot myself. The closer what we eat is to it’s natural form the better . Eat what you like , we’re all going to die sometime and we all have choices.

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 12:52am

I understand that meat eating probably played a role in human evolution, but I don't see that in itself being an argument to continue eating it. No more than skinning animals and wearing their pelts for warmth in winter is justified by an argument that that is what our ancestors had to do to survive.

Thelonious Monk · 02-02-2022 12:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568463#Comment_118568463

Takes a fraction of the land and water etc to produce soy rather than dairy. Also vast amounts of land worldwide are used to grow soy and maize to be fed to animals.

02-02-2022 12:58am

And we import 14million tons of fertilizer every year in Ireland, produced by poorer countries, creating a huge carbon footprint to feed grassland for the cattle industry here .

listermint · 02-02-2022 1:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567701#Comment_118567701

Throw out some nonsense any oul nonsense then fling in media and everyone.

Instant looper likes.

Ubbquittious · 02-02-2022 1:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568633#Comment_118568633

I wouldnt call Norway a 'poorer country'

uch · 02-02-2022 1:45am

Anyone fancy a bit of cake??

AllForIt · 02-02-2022 2:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568601#Comment_118568601

Once again you’re picking me up wrong , I never said digesting meat was a problem “across the board” I specifically said it was ME who has a problem digesting red meat, not the entire human race .

Apologies, I took you up wrong on that point then. But I reemphasize for the audience, meat is not hard to digest. We are build to digest meat just like a lion is.

And I myself am not saying colon cancer deaths are due “conclusively”to eating red meat. That’s why I backed up what I said to an article on the link to red meat and colon cancer (cancer.org) from people who actually study it .......there is a definite link. That doesn’t mean that every colon cancer can be traced back to red meat but my ex partner who died in Oct 2021 after only getting a diagnosis in March 2021 was a huge fan of red meat. Maybe he was always going to get cancer ........who knows .

Yeah but as I've said, and I've not got time to read the full report, but I'm already sceptical about it. Because I don't believe there is anything wrong with red meat except for it's fat content. Why would read meat per se be cancerous as opposed to white meat. It doesn't make any logical sense. It does make sense when you consider that red meat is often 'processed', like in burgers. I never eat burgers and people who do often eat a generally unhealthy diet anyway. If I were to eat a 'burger', it would be slab of steak in a bun, like a burger. I've haven't the time to make an actual lean burger and most people never do. They usually buy one, that isn't healthy.

I’m also not talking about the fat content of red meat , that’s not the biggest issue when it comes to health . It’s that fibrous red meat is one of the hardest things to digest and stays in the digestive system and colon longer than any other food , whereas beans, peas, pulses, veg and fruit pass through much quicker so less toxins hanging around inside us.

Animal fat is absolutely the biggest issue when it comes to healthy eating of meat aside from processed meat. For example Kentucky fried chicken is unhealthy because it has it's skin on it, which is animal fat. Then it's fried in vegetable oil (which is vegan) as more unhealthy fat. I'd never eat chicken skin, even if I roast one, i'd take the skin off first. It's the chicken fat that is unhealthy, not the chicken meat. And you are contradicting yourself here because now you are now saying that red meat is hard to digest and that has some unhealthy consequences. There is no evidence something that is hard to digest is 'unhealthy' it just means it takes 'longer' to digest. And that is a very very good think in terms of weigh loss, because it takes energy to digest protein which meat has an abundance of and that is why all meat keeps you satiated for longer, as I previously mentioned.

I dont like any any of the meat substitutes, they’re heavily processed .....I love mushroom burgers, chickpea burgers and beetroot burgers though & make a lot myself. The closer what we eat is to it’s natural form the better . Eat what you like , we’re all going to die sometime and we all have choices.

Well exactly. One shouldn't eat anything processed. But again my point is 60% of my diet is already 'vegan', I love mushrooms, I eat them raw out of the box when they are utterly fresh. I make humus from chickpeas, and use them in a curry from time to time that has no meat in it at all. I usually make a curry out of lentils, chick peas, whatever else I have knocking around. So I do eat purely vegan meals from time to time. The fact I eat meat and dairy does not mean I don't get the benefits of 'vegan' food, so that's my argument against the idea that a vegan diet is 'healthier'. And I know your not making that argument but I'm just making the point generally.

Mecanudo · 02-02-2022 2:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568146#Comment_118568146

Did you know that the highest rates of colon cancer has been recorded in people who live in just 10 counties in Ireland? With counties Cork, Leitrim and Louth ringing the bell at the top.

But a higher incidence rate is not just linked to where you live apparently. Research indicates that the risk of a colon cancer diagnosis is increased by a number of factors including but not limited to lifestyle and genetics, but with the qualifier that between 30 to 60 minutes of exercise can offer the best protection?

Now that thing with red meat and risk is that observation comes from a World Health Organisation review of a number of pre-existing studies where a high consumption of red meat was classified as being probably carcinogenic.

And according to the WHO, that classification for red meat, was based on limited evidence from a number of existing observationional studies. The overall risk was also deemed to be very low.

Limited evidence means that a positive association has been observed between exposure to the agent and cancer but that other explanations for the observations (technically termed chance, bias, or confounding) could not be ruled out.

Observational studies typically provide only low-quality evidence and because of that the World Health Organisation has categorically stated that "Eating red meat has not yet been established as a cause of cancer"

Whilst I'm sure that no-one can understand the loss of your friends to Colon cancer. Unilaterally associating any such death with solely eating red meat is a non sequitur.

Thing is though colon cancer isn't even top of the list of diagnosed cancers in Ireland, where you're much more likley to be diagnosed with;

Skin cancer - with an 12,919 estimated number of average annual diagnoses

Prostrate cancer - with an 3,869 estimated number of average annual diagnoses

Breast cancer with an 3,542 estimated number of average annual diagnoses

Colon cancer has an 2,690 estimated number of average annual diagnoses.

To stay healthier, the no brainer would to be eat a healthy balanced diet up to and including eating the recommended portion of red meat if you wish, get lots of exercise, stay out of the Sun and perhaps oddly enough be choosy where you live.

02-02-2022 3:38am

I never really understood the problem people have with sausages. I’m happy to eat pretty much all of that stuff anyway so why not put it together? As for vegans, the diet doesn’t magically make you healthy. If you were an unhealthy lazy meat eater, you’re just going to be an unhealthy lazy vegan.

Curious to try some of these newer brands like Beyond. I’ve had some fake meat before and thought it was only ok, but I’d usually just prefer normal food. There’s a Vegas buffet close to me that has loads of lovely stuff laid out.

cj maxx · 02-02-2022 3:48am

I hope people don't buy into this shite of fake meat , as I run a herd of bullocks. But personally I've going meat free

SophyQ · 02-02-2022 3:55am

I prefer real meat, but what if all the meat on shelves going to be fake meat?😫

SamStonesArm · 02-02-2022 4:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568871#Comment_118568871

That'll never happen , not in my lifetime anyways , once I'm dead though I don't care of it's banned haha

SophyQ · 02-02-2022 4:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568879#Comment_118568879

Maybe you're right, but I can see a tendency for meat prices to raise anyway.

Shao Kahn · 02-02-2022 7:41am

I think there are plans "behind the scenes" to eventually get everyone off meat, and onto a vegan style diet.

I don't think it's just the stuff of conspiracy theorists, because quite frankly, these vegan extremists are actually very powerful and have a lot of influence within the power structures of society.

So the promotion of vegan or non meat alternatives, is not some innocent harmless development in our lives imho. It is a very careful and deliberate plan to defeat the producers of traditional foods and move society towards what these groups consider to be a better alternative. They don't want you or me to have a choice... yes initially they will market this stuff as an alternative "choice"... but their ultimate end game is to force everyone to eat what they eat.

The funny thing is, there is mounting evidence that these vegan foods are actually very harmful to the environment in their production processes. Particularly the scale of production required to match the calorie requirements of the average citizen's daily needs - as vegan and vegetarian foods are naturally much lower in calories. While on the face of it, this may seem like a good thing. But people need a certain amount of energy from calories to sustain their daily energy needs. Vegan foods, pound for pound, don't produce very much energy when compared to the their destructive effects on the surrounding environment, ecology, animal life and huge energy required to produce them.

A field of lettuce, as just one example, produces very little total calories for your dinner plate... but yet has quite a dramatic impact on the surrounding environment and local animal life. Far more destructive in fact, than having a few beef or dairy cows munching on some grass in a field. (when compared in terms calorie for calorie pay-off)

But these things are being covered up, by a very determined and influential group of people "behind the scenes".

02-02-2022 9:01am

Who are these "powerful vegan extremists" .... surely they are just ordinary people who are open to change, reading, listening, experimenting , changing? I think there are a huge amount of people now eating vegan or plant based diets. And its growing. They are quietly getting on with it, making choices, enjoying learning as they go along. Thats fine, I'm one of them. I never speak to most people about it, there's no need as there is a huge choice everywhere now, shops, restaurants, coffee shops.

Some very good input on this thread, its good to see both sides debate without name calling (!), its an emotive issue and there is definitely a worry about the environmental footprint of some vegan foods like avocados and chickpeas, but that's there with a lot of what we see in supermarkets anyway, vegan or not.

Off to have my brekkie of toast, almond butter and honey!

02-02-2022 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568601#Comment_118568601

"I backed up what I said to an article on the link to red meat and colon cancer (cancer.org)"

Unfortunately it is not a great link/article at all. Usually an article that just says "We know for definite" that "X" causes cancer is little better than an opinion piece - or a scare mongering Daily Mail Article.

Absolute risks / relative risks

What would be better is articles/links that discuss the actual risks. Risks that are cited as "absolute" and "relative" risks specifically. Better if they cite both and explain the difference between them. Then you know you have an article worth reading.

Even then though - some studies are simply awful. For example there was a study once which claimed to show choosing red meat over poultry resulted in a 25% increase in breast cancer risk. Who did they study? Only women with a genetic history of breast cancer. Not a cross population selection. And that is only one example of some of the awful points of that study. But even then this is a 25% RELATIVE risk decrease. The actual risk decrease? About 0.01%.

So like your link that study could claim "Choosing red meat over poultry definitely causes breast cancer". And if you close one eye and squint pedantically at the text - they are technically right. However when you get the actual figures and data on it - the risk increase is so tiny as to be insignificant. As a user above pointed out - you'd probably have a significantly bigger effect if you simply moved to a different county in Ireland!

Correlation != Causation

So - to your link. Has red meat and specifically processed red meat been shown to have associations to cancer? Yes. It has. But the absolute risk is generally so small - and the portion sizes to actually attain that small effect so large - that it really is an insignificant finding. And the link you provided seemingly does not want to point that fact out. Which is poor form on their part as they are not serving you well and misleading you.

Red meat has not been established as a cause of cancer. That is the take away you need. It has been weakly associated with cancer at best. Just like increase ice cream consumption is weakly associated with increased shark attacks. Why? Because generally swimming and ice cream eating go up in frequency at the same time. Correlation does not equal causation. And again many links/articles - like the one you provided - want to not tell you that for some reason.

Portion size

A big take away from studies is that the good studies mention not just the absolute risk increase but the portion size required to get that. It is a not a 0 or 1 - black and white issue like many people reading the daily mail might think. Reading articles many people think "X causes cancer therefore I need to avoid X!!!". That is not how it works.

Take the study for example which caused some headlines 5 years or so ago which said Processed Red Meat causes Colon Cancer.

What the actual study showed was you would have to eat a few ounces of such processed meat - every single day - for the rest of your life. And the effect of this would be to increase your risk of colorectal cancer from about 4.5% (the level pretty much everyone is at by default) to 5.3%.

Not a significant increase! But do / did you eat "a few ounces every day"? Most people don't.

So the take away from that article the daily mail would give you? Something like "The processed meat causes a 17% increase in risk of colon cancer so stop eating it!" I would expect.

The actual take away you should take? Something like "Processed meat eaten daily to the tune of a few ounces has been weakly associated with an absolute risk increase of colon cancer of 0.8% which is quite insignificant but still maybe do not eat it every day all the same and vary your diet a bit!?!?" would be a fair appraisal of the data.

Final Take Away?

The most important take away really is that even the worst foods can be a part of a balanced and varied diet. There is little evidence that any of the foods on our shelves are in and of themselves going to affect you badly - let alone cause cancers - unless you are eating significant quantities of them.

So at the end of the day the best thing to do is ignore all the studies really. Instead find out the diet that works best for you - makes you feel the healthiest you can be - the happiest you can be - gives you the most pleasure from the experience of eating you can get - and in general helps you be the best version of yourself that you can be.

It sounds from your first post like you have found that already! Many people do not. Especially as the perfect diet for one person can be a horror show for the next person and leave them without energy or drive or health. It took me a long long time to find the diet that works for me that gives me the level of clarity, drive, energy, motivation, sexual prowess, and sportiness that I am at today :)

To give one mad story - I helped a friend try out loads of diets because he was over weight and had no energy and drive. In the end having tried everything we went back to his original diet and simply changed when and how he was eating it. Quantities and foods all remained the same. We just changed when in the day he was having each food type. And the weight fell off him and he felt great. Totally counter intuitive! But it worked for him.

So consider yourself lucky if you have found your niche! :)

02-02-2022 9:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568785#Comment_118568785

Apologies AllForIt, I cannot use this new Boards setup, it quotes the entire post instead of just a few words I wanted to highlight!

You mentioned you didn't have time to read the report so I'll just synopsis the small bit that stands out in a Harvard Health study from Harvard Medical School : "A high percentage of red meat increases colon cancer risk by 28%, and a high percentage of processed meat increases risk by 20% (surprising, thought it was the other way around)

.https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/red-meat-and-colon-cancer#:~:text=A%20meta%2Danalysis%20of%2029,meat%20increases%20risk%20by%2020%25.

So I guess its not that high, there are other risk factors for sure, but its food for thought (excuse pun).

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 9:14am

A field of lettuce, as just one example, produces very little total calories for your dinner plate... but yet has quite a dramatic impact on the surrounding environment and local animal life. Far more destructive in fact, than having a few beef or dairy cows munching on some grass in a field. (when compared in terms calorie for calorie pay-off)

you might be cherry picking lettuce there, but if you want to compare calorie output of a vegetable crop vs a beef farm, you're on to a loser.

the national average 'beef output per Ha' is 455kg. ( https://www.icbf.com/?p=8469 ) - at 2,500 calories per kg, that'd be 1.15 million calories per Ha per year.

the average potato yield in ireland per Ha in 2020 was 34 tons; at 700 calories per Kg - it's 23 million calories per Ha per year.

i'm not suggesting the irish return to a potato based diet, but comparing calorie output of veg vs beef is a losing battle.

if you want to talk about impact on the environment (again purely just in terms of providing calories, as per your comparison), can you imagine if we closed all beef farms and let them return to nature, and opened up *one twentieth* of that land and grew spuds instead?

02-02-2022 9:17am

Good post taxAHcruel and you're dead right, find out what is good for you and what works. It can take years but its worth it. We're all going to die anyway of something and that's happening too much lately to people I know. So enjoy it all and allow people have their own views without censorship (not you). The only thing I find hugely upsetting is the beef production business and sending young animals to the "factory" which is a very sanitised and handy way of saying what actually happens. Anyway, thats another story.

02-02-2022 9:21am

^ Another poor link unfortunately. It does not - as I said in my longer post above for example - discuss the difference between absolute and relative risk increases and it only passingly discusses portion size.

The best advice I can repeat is that if you find an article which is centered around flashy looking figures like "20% increase" and gives you zero detail behind that - the article is not worth reading. And it is even less worth citing.

But in their defense at least they do not discuss avoiding such foods but merely "limiting" them. Which is the big take away from most studies. To achieve the effect many studies claim you have to be eating a significant quantity of the food in question. Your link at least mentions this - comparing people who eat an average of 5 ounces a day to those who average out at 1 ounce a day.

Certainly not evidence that people should be avoiding - say - putting a couple of slices of salami in their kids sandwich at lunch time or anything :)

02-02-2022 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569060#Comment_118569060

Agreed. I have been trying to source my meat much better of late. I fish when I can. I capture rabbit when I can. And I have a good relationship with some butchers who more ethically source meat for me which we kill and butcher ourselves. For Christmas we get a goose or two and keep it on our land and care for it before we kill it ourselves. And I recently celebrated the slow wind down of Covid by traveling to the US and going bow hunting for the first time for meat.

All in all I avoid where possible - so not entirely - simply walking into a super market and taking some nicely packaged sanitized version of meat off the shelf. I do when I have no other choice. But it's much more limited today.

Ethical reasons for reducing or avoiding meat are great. Personal reasons when you simply discover less meat benefits you personally are great too.

But mostly any article/study you cite suggesting you should be doing this are going to be really poor and unconvincing. The links to cancer are dubious. The links to all cause mortality even more so. Some of the studies could only find statistically significant results in people who were eating two or more portions of red meat every single day! Who actually does that?

Even less convincing is the public perception that "plant based" alternatives are automatically healthier because they are plant based. In fact some US fast food companies list their plant based alternatives specifically under the "better for you" options. Often this is simply not true. Many such foods are as unhealthy as their meat counter parts or sometimes even worse. But marketing companies know how to abuse public perception and cash in.

Mecanudo · 02-02-2022 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568633#Comment_118568633

Erm that's not right al all. I saw an article on fertilisers recently that most of the fertilisers here come from EU countries including Spain, Greece, the Netherlands and Belgium with some also coming from Turkey and Egypt afaik but most certainly doesn't come from "poorer countries". Where did you get that idea?

As for carbon footprint of fertilisers I looked that up and

The average usage of fertiliser nutrients applied to grazed grassland was estimated at 65, 3 and 9 kg/ha for N, P and K respectively.

For cereals crops, the average fertiliser usage for all cereal crops was estimated 137, 20 and 48 kg/ha for N, P and K respectively,

Now the thing is most of the soils along with climate etc in Ireland means that cereals don't grow well here which is good thing because from the above cereals need a lot more fertilisers to grow anyway

The other thing about cereals is that ploughing of soils releases huge amount of carbon with the EU having recommending fewer soils are ploughed to help prevent loss of Carbon to the atmosphere. Grassland is not regularly ploughed and can absorb carbon from the atmosphere. Cereal fields have to be ploughed every year.

Grass grows well in Ireland and we certainly can grow grass with less artificial fertilisers. We can't do that with cereals.

We produce beef here mainly because we can grow grass so well And a lot of that goes to our European trading partners who can't. We in turn import things we can't grow so well such as a lot of horticultural produce etc.

Thelonious Monk · 02-02-2022 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569025#Comment_118569025

Maggie avocadoes and chickpeas aren't vegan foods as in not exclusively eaten by vegans, probably 99% of avocadoes and chickpeas are eaten by meat eaters anyway, if there were no vegans it wouldn't really affect the market for avocado and chickpeas. Also neither have an ecological footprint anywhere near the size of meat!

growleaves · 02-02-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568362#Comment_118568362

Broflakes?

#IfYouCanBeAnythingBeKind

growleaves · 02-02-2022 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569597#Comment_118569597

Is any food exclusively eaten by vegans?

I go to vegan restaurants a lot and I am a meat eater.

Thelonious Monk · 02-02-2022 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569744#Comment_118569744

no but avocadoes are often used as an attack on vegans when they are almost exclusively grown for people who also eat meat!

magicbastarder · 02-02-2022 12:42pm

no but avocadoes are often used as an attack on vegans

they do much less damage when ripe though. much better as a missile when unripe.

Mecanudo · 02-02-2022 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569744#Comment_118569744

I'd agree there. On the most basic level food is either meat, vegetables or cereals at the end of a day. What people may choose to eat as a diet is something else entirely.

I think avocados are often pushed as being "good for you" are actually bad for all types of reasons (but are not bad 'for you' if you know what I mean).

Avocados are grown as a cash group in vast monocultures and need huge amounts of irrigated water to grow. Now if that was Ireland that wouldn't be a problem because most of the water used in agricultural production here comes from percipitation. But because avocados require high temperatures, they often grown in areas that are prone to drought and that have been deliberately deforestated to grow them. They are also known as "green gold" such is the demand and amount of money they generate.

Afaik the world’s largest producer of avocados is Mexico where avocado plantations have been linked to drug cartels and the use of forced or slave labour. Probably best avoid imho despite the hype

https://www.maplecroft.com/insights/analysis/are-mexican-avocados-the-next-conflict-commodity/

Thelonious Monk · 02-02-2022 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118570007#Comment_118570007

The problem here is the rapid growth of production in specific regions that lack prudent controls on water use, like Peru and Chile. Avocados generate a third of the emissions of chicken, a quarter of those of pork, and a 20th of beef (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/76958641.pdf)

If you are still worried about avocados, you can of course choose not to eat them. But it’s not a reason to eat meat instead, which has a much bigger water and deforestation footprint. The market is likely to solve the problem, as the high demand from consumers for avocados and almonds incentivises farmers elsewhere to grow the crops, thereby alleviating the pressure on current production hotspots.

kowloon · 02-02-2022 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569052#Comment_118569052

i'm not suggesting the irish return to a potato based diet, but comparing calorie output of veg vs beef is a losing battle.

Yeah, historically speaking, that hasn't gone so well for us. But it's interesting that a major export from Ireland during the famine was beef. Make of that what you will and hope laissez-faire libertarians never get into power.

FishOnABike · 02-02-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569888#Comment_118569888

An avacado, ripe or unripe, pales into insignificance when compared to a skilfully wielded black pudding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Kapers

Fake meat

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