Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Black Monday 2022 - NFL Coaching Carousel

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,384 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    but McDaniels started by reading off his list of accomplishments

    Oh I’d not heard that before. That would put me right off someone if they started bragging about themselves on a first meeting. I mean would Flores count as it kind of working ? @Oat23 you make the patriot way should like Kerry GAA supporters or Guinness.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Well I'm claiming Vrabel as a Belichick disciple. He spent 7 years under him and he's become an excellent coach and he worked under Bill O'Brien, a Belichick coach, before becoming a head coach.

    I have always felt that when Bill does decide to retire that if one of his son's isn't ready to take over that it'll be Vrabel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Probably sees the writing on the wall with the Patriots when it comes to the nepotism situation that is becoming more and more like the route they might go when Bill calls it a day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Patriots now being accused of nepotism. Lol, anybody who can't see the Patriots hater is blind



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,384 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Patriots hate ? You mentioned that BB would pass on the HC job to one of his sons ffs. How else was anyone else meant to take it ? well you might want to book an appointment with an optician.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Daboll will be another Patriot Way dumsterfire - and I really do hope that the Raiders hire McDaniels and give him the keys to the car. I would not inflict the petulant child on anyone - but being a Broncos fan - I will always make an exception for the Raiders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Just so we are clear - Mike Vrabel has never been a coach under BB.

    The fact that he was a coach under another failed Pats cast-off has probably benefitted him in his coaching career in seeing how lucky he was to escape the regime that is coaching under BB in NE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    That is only one of a long list of antics that McDisaster got up to.

    As for Flores - he was a failure because he wanted to act like the rest of the BB cast-offs and the owner in Miami couldn't tolerate him p*ssing off everyone in the organisation anymore.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,384 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    NFL network are reporting that the raiders will hire Josh McDaniels as their new head coach. Let’s hope the raiders legal dept make the contract iron clad and make it financially prohibitive if he tries to pull a stunt like he did with the colts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    If he passed it on to one of his sons then that son is the best person for the job.

    As I said also I do believe that it's very likely imo that our next head coach will be Mike Vrabel.

    There's no history of nepotism in the Patriots organisation, you can be sure that the Kraft's will be very involved in the process when it does happen.

    Bob Kraft has only ever hired two head coaches in his time with the Patriots, those being Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick.

    The suggestion of nepotism was never part of my post. I merely figured that one of his sons will be head coach of the Patriots some day when they are ready. Only a fool wouldn't want to give the opportunity to the son of Bill Belichick and grandson of Steve Belichick, two of the greatest minds in the history of the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Not alone did McD draft Tebow - he traded a 2nd,3rd and 4th round pick to get back into the first round to draft him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Vrabel said, "I hung up the phone and we didn't talk for probably two years. Retired. Called him and talked about coaching. The relationship kind of picked back up from then, and he's been a great asset to me, my family, and just to help me work through situations. Talk ball. Work through things being a head coach."

    https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/mike-vrabel-says-bill-belichick-has-been-great-asset-during-coaching-career



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    There is a hell of a difference between talking to a guy on the phone (maybe a couple of times a year) and learning your coaching craft under his control for maybe 16 hours a day for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I don't know how anyone with a straight face can claim that isn't nepotism - sure even before you get to potentially being handed the HC job, what has already happened at the Patriots is in itself a great example of nepotism. There were thousands of people who were more qualified than both of Bill's sons for the jobs they were handed but they got them because of who their dad is



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Flores suing the Giants & NFL for racism in their hiring process. Key piece of evidence apparently a mistaken text from Belichick. Also, includes Dolphins owner offering him $100k for each loss and trying to get him to tamper with a QB and the Broncos front office showing up an hour late for an interview looking hungover. Last thing the NFL wants in the run up to the Super Bowl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭Oat23


    So basically BB texted the wrong person and told Flores that Daboll was getting the Giants job before Flores had even had his interview. So they have been caught interviewing a minority candidate just to satisfy the Rooney rule without that candidate actually getting a fair shot?

    Not really surprising that this stuff happens obviously, but I hope he takes them to cleaners.

    The $100k per loss offer is another level entirely. Ross should be forced out if that is proven.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Looks like multiple instances of teams doing that - the Giants case is just the latest and he has evidence.

    NFL will go the usual route and settle for big money and punishing the teams. There is no way they'll want discovery or have Belichick, Ross, Elway etc on the witness stand



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭MileHighGuy


    Surprised he went down this route. I thought he would have been in demand after the job he did at the Dolphins, although I have no idea about relationship with players/coaches/owners..... Can't imagine he'll get much consideration for HC positions after this.

    The offer of 100k per loss would be the headline for me. The BB text don't really mean anything to me, unless I'm missing something obvious.... Just trying to be nice and texted the wrong person.... Daboll got the job before Flores was interviewed...I'm sure a load of NFL jobs are filled before the interview process is officially over.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Storm in a tea cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,384 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    So the Rooney Rule has been shown to not be robust enough ? I’m not that shocked because I’ve always felt that some teams were box ticking when hiring a HC. Also I’d be shocked if John Mara would allow his team to just do that. If there was a minority coach interviewed for the job before Flores then they have satisfied the rule as I understand it.

    The offering money for losing allegation is a lot more serious imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭Mr. Guappa


    They increased the requirement last year - now 2 minority candidates must be interviewed for HC jobs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    Wouldn't be like slick Willie Belichick to have the inside track on some underhand shenanigans



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alberto Curved Urinal


    To be fair to the giants they hired the bills gm he probably knew he wanted daboll when he decided to take the job. Its an inherent issues with the Rooney rule.


    The dolphins paying to lose games is a far bigger deal imo that's a lose draft picks kind of offence



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's not an issue, it is one of the very things it is trying to address.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alberto Curved Urinal


    Sure but in this case having token interviews for a job thats gone is fairly demeaning



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Its massively demeaning. But GMs/owners "knowing who they want" and therefore not bothering to interview other candidates was essentially one of the core things the Rooney Rule was trying to improve. That at least you had to interview other candidates and open up the possibility.

    The rule isn't the issue. The issue is that (apparently) it was clearly broken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,276 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    It seems they interviewed Leslie Frazier and Pat Graham for the role already. If that's true the Rooney rule is in the bin. It's not a particularly nice thing to do but he ain't getting a payout on this one.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alberto Curved Urinal


    Ya thats fair but realistically guys hired from other company's and bringing in good employees they trus from the former company happens everywhere and won't be stopped.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    They have to be external candidates.

    This is the whole problem the lawsuit is addressing, the fact that those at the top of the NFL are all old white men means they've blocked out black candidates and hired those in their circle. The numbers they include in the lawsuit are absolutely damning against the NFL, every owner, and front office:

    - it took 40 years (mid 80s) for Black QBs to be acceptable

    - it took 43 years for the first Black HC

    - it took 54 years for the first Black GM

    - it took 76 years to the Present with no Black majority owners, and no Black Commissioner

    - Only 1 team (of 32) has a Black HC (3%)

    - 4 have a Black O-Coordinator (12%)

    - 11 have a Black DC (34%)

    - 8 have a Black ST Coord (25%)

    - 3 have a Black QB Coach (9%)

    - 6 have a Black GM (19%)

    - In the 20 years since the Rooney Rule only 11% of HC vacancies were filled by Black candidates (15 of 129)

    - Since 2012 of the 10 Black HCs hired, zero of them are still employed

    - In the same timeframe white HCs have been given an average of 3.5 years on the job compared to 2.5 years for Black HCs - a full year extra

    - Since 1978 only 16 teams have fired winning coaches of those 16, 4 of them were Black

    - Black HCs are 3.5 times more likely to be fired after a winning season

    - Since 1963, 116 white coaches have been given second chances to coach, while only 21 Black coaches have been given that chance

    All of that against a sport that 70% of the players are black.

    Not sure if he'll be successful but what a brave move by Flores, putting himself at such great risk to shine a light on what everyone but those who have blinkers on can see is a huge issue within the NFL white boys club. The fact that Belichick seems to have just shrugged his shoulders at what the Giants look to be doing to Flores says it all - it is rampant and expected. Black coaches shouldn't have to accept being treated like that



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alberto Curved Urinal


    I'm not sure there's a way to fix this tbh bar maby coach quotas which is a terrible idea



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Well first thing is the NFL needs to accept that there is a problem, their initial aggressive statement last night surprised even me and I have an extremely low opinion of the organisation when it comes to dealing with issues related to race.

    As for fixes, there is no silver bullet but they list out a several items in the lawsuit that would help.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Can't if you name the top 32 coaches who are not head coaches in the NFL?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alberto Curved Urinal


    Probably a bigger issue in college football than the nfl.


    I'd not have faith in the nfl for anything morally their as bad as fifa



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    It takes naivety to a whole new level to believe the statistics noted in the lawsuit are down to coincidence - that it is a level playing field and all the white coaches being hired at a higher rate and retained longer is down to merit and that they were the top coach each time.

    Absolutely unsurprising that the poster who 'doesn't like to mention racism' and defended Gruden's character after his racist comments that he felt comfortable writing in work emails feels this is a 'storm in a tea cup'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    Yes. I find it ironic that that the poster you mention makes a virtue of proclaiming how much they face down racism, sexism and misogyny in their daily lives but refuses to acknowledge racism in the sport they love



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm specifically talking about Belichick's texts.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    Ah yes of course I forgot. Whenever any hint of scandal touches the Patriots or slick Billy your standard response is "Nothing to see here".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭el Fenomeno


    Are you going to tell us what your last username was? 🙂



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    His texts are the smoking gun that the rule was being blatantly ignored and that Flores was a token candidate. No one is blaming BB, you can relax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm all for black men being treated equally but you gotta earn the right to a head coaching job. Daboll has done that and for me him and Bieniemy were the two outstanding candidates for head coaching positions. I say those two because it's turned more and more into an offensive game these last few years.

    The next coach in line for a head coaching position is Todd Bowlers. He has to get another shot.

    This Rooney rule is stupid. You could interview 20 black men and one white man and still hire the white man. Perfect way for a racist white owner to hide.

    The ideal scenario is that everybody ignores skin colour but it's hard to see that happen in the US unfortunately.

    The way forward is to give people opportunities to work their way up and earn the right to be a head coach.

    The snowflakes want black men who haven't earned the right to be given these jobs ahead of white men who have earned the right. That isn't fair to anybody, the man whose earned the shot should get it and the man who hasn't earned it shouldn't and it'll only make things worse if he gets it and fails.

    Flores got a head coaching opportunity and failed. He was fired for taking Tua Tagovailoa over Herbert more than any other reason and to me that's fair enough. Did he earn the opportunity to be a head coach? I'm not sure he did as he was never a co-ordinator. He's a smart guy and he was with the most successful franchise of the last twenty years but I think you need to be a co-ordinator before you are a head coach.

    So let's get more black men in as assistants and work their way through the ranks. That way there'll be loads of good candidates for head coaching positions in five years or a little longer.

    That's how you change things, not with some stupid rule that you have to interview somebody when you've already decided who you want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,778 ✭✭✭Big Pussy Bonpensiero


    You'd think it would be impossible to say that there isn't blatant racism in the League in terms of coaches when you consider that well over 50% of players in the NFL are black, and that has been the case for well over 20 years now.

    On another note that post above me is the literal definition of white fragility.


    There's some people on here that if you knew them in real life you just wouldn't listen to or take them seriously at all. One of the benefits of boards, but at times a disadvantage, is that everyone gets the same space to express their opinion, even when they've shown time and time again that they're a bigot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Living in an absolute fairytale land there.

    Your whole post is based on an obviously false premise that current white head coaches and GMs 'earned' and then maintain their positions on merit and that black coaches that aren't being hired haven't 'earned their right'.

    Rather than taking issue with what is happening currently that we have clear evidence of, you’re instead outraged to the point of name calling others at the potential that a non-white person might possibly get the same treatment and get something they haven’t earned. Your perspective is even more ridiculous after you just in the last week made excuses for obvious nepotism by white NFL coaches. Your fragility is clearly on show.

    No one is saying anyone shouldn’t earn their job, they’re pointing out that currently there is no justification for how lopsided the numbers are when it comes to the race of coaches being hiring and retained and how there is no reasonable way to look at it that doesn’t come back to racial discrimination. The exact comments that you tried your best to excuse from Gruden’s character are the exact mindset of white owners, GMs, HCs who are decision makers and a key element of the problem.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    Love it. You've ignored a pervious posters stats just to do your usual deflection



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 185 ✭✭DonegalBay


    This is a genuine question, how many of the current coaching/co-ordinator positions are held by former NFL players? Vrabel is one, but are there many more? Are most positions not given to former college coaches. So is the disconnect at college level? for example if the majority of college coaches are white and that is how NFL teams recruit, then naturally that will be reflected in the NFL. So the next question is how do colleges recruit their coaches?? Is it from High School teams? If so what % of high school coaches in the US are non-white? Whilst 70% of NFL players might be black, what % of young black people are entering into coaching at high school or college level, at a guess I would say it is more in line with the overall Black population of the US which is reflected in the figures in your post. Is that down to lack of opportunities or lack of interest? I don't know. I just imagine that is where the biggest issue is and then is just mirrored through to NFL level, not to say that is there is no level of discrimination either. I just don't think saying 70% of NFL players are black automatically means all that much in a coaching context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Thats just complete bull and a real snowflake post.

    You want it done now which in reality is never going to happen.

    I'm giving a solution that you can't stop. Development of black coaches at the NFL level where they get experience and the good ones climb the ladder and have to get head coaching jobs because they've earned it.

    This Rooney rule is complete codswallop. It's never changing anything.

    I asked everybody to name the thirty two best people who have never been head coaches for those jobs. There wasn't one reply because none of you have a clue.

    I named the three best coaches in my opinion, I don't think anybody disagreed with those names, two are black men

    , one is white.

    I can name who in my opinion are the best 32 candidates and unfortunately there's not many black men on the list.

    That's what has to change, more black coaches have to be brought in at the bottom level to work their way up. Solutions aren't instant, it takes time. If they populate the lower ranks of coaching fairly then in something like 5-7 years you'll have a lot more black coaches at the top table in the NFL.

    Go tell me where I'm going wrong there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,026 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Where did I say every coach deserves to be where he is? There's obviously some idiotic owners who will hire undeserving and basically terrible head coaches.

    Looking around the league I'd say that five are easy to pick out as haven't earned it. There's loads that have had positions that didn't deserve it either.

    You name the black men you think are deserving of head coach positions right now, I'll give you the first two Eric Bieniemy and Todd Bowles. You go name another three and then rank them among all candidates who should be in line fir head coaching positions.

    Personally as I've already said the next two up are black men but after those two I'm looking a long way down the list for another.

    Snowflakes take issue with what's happening currently without rational solutions. The rational solution is to bring more black coaches in on the ground floor and let the best work their way up to the top. The big problem is that there's not enough getting opportunities at the ground floor level.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement