Auschwitz was liberated 77 years ago

"I do like how people get agitated about the claim that the Nazis were Socialists, almost like they're worried that people might actually look at the Nazis manifestos and actions in government and realise that Marx would have been purring in approval about most of them."

Hardly likely as Marx was a German Jew (by Nazi classification) and virtually all Nazi policy was predicated on hatred of Jews and promoting the interests of the German Aryan master-race.

That's not true at all. The major concern of the fascists in 1933 was to rebuild Germany from the dire state it was in. Jew-Gentile tensions weren't much more strained than they had always been. Those tensions really only increased when belligerent Jewish organisations outside of Germany began making false claims of genocide and calling for a boycott of German goods, while Jewish organisations in Germany were understandably trying to keep some kind of peace.

Classic Holocaust denial, it was all Jewish propoganda. LOL.

The Nazis in early 1933 began by dismissing Jewish civil servants and progressively (regressively) dismissing educators and bringing in further restrictions till they removed their citizenship. Eventually from September 1941 Jews in Germany were required to wear a yellow star of David and were ordered to 'report for relocation' , a convenient euphemism for extermination.

The Jews in eastern Europe, being less visable to the German population, weren't treated quite so gently of course.

But what the heck, you reckon it's all the fault of Jews and probably exaggerated anyway.

The extermination of Jewish people in under the Nazis was already well known about in 1942, with a detailed account being published by the then Polish government in exile for the attention of the Allies

The declaration details the treatment and killing of Jewish people in Poland and the use of ghettos and death camps to first detain and then exterminate vast numbers of people.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AThe_Mass_Extermination_of_Jews_in_German_Occupied.pdf&page=1

There is little doubt that the Allies know exactly what the Nazis were doing in 1942 /1943.

"There is little doubt that the Allies know exactly what the Nazis were doing in 1942 /1943."

Yes, but who were the allies? The answer may seem obvious but it really isn't.

The original 'allies' from September 1939 were Britain, France and Poland. While both Poland (1939) and France (1940) were both militarily defeated their subsequent status was quite different. France signed an agreement with Germany but Poland didn't and their Government moved to Britain maintaining military forces both outside and inside (Polish Home Army) Poland.

The 'allies' changed dramatically in June (Barbarossa) and December (German declaration of war on America) 1941. The Russians being an ally complicated relations as they had invaded eastern Poland at the end of September 1939 and when the Germans revealed in April 1942 the murder of Polish officers and elites (around 22,000) by the Soviet NKVD that had occurred in May 1940 this led to Moscow breaking relations with the Polish Government in exile.

The allies had a very good idea of what was happening in Poland right up to the end of the war thanks to the brave efforts of Poles during the occupation. What they could do regarding this knowledge is not as clear.

You make some good points regarding information and knowing but certainly by mid-1943 when I believe FDR was acknowledging in private the basic reality of what we now call the Holocaust the western allies knew as opposed to having unconfirmed reports.

The German soldiers who invaded Poland and later Russia were often equipped with personal cameras and photographed many of the atrocities. Some sent the undeveloped film home but others used a processing facility in Warsaw that had been infiltrated by the Polish underground. Copies of incriminating photos were made and eventually provided to the British and Americans.

The Nazi murder machine was so extensive there was little that could have been done that wasn't already part of the war effort.

The amazing thing is the priority that the Nazis gave to the Final Solution even when the tide had turned against them. This for me was the hardest to rationalise. It's only when you read the views of the top Nazis you realize that for them the extermination of every last Jew within their orbit was viewed as a strategic war aim.

It's amazing the lengths to which Holocaust deniers will go to avoid admitting what the Nazis themselves documented and justified unashamedly.

The German term was "Endlosung" as coined during the Nazi's discussions on the Endlosung der Judenfrage (The Final Solution of the Jewish Question) during 1942. It had nothing to do with any previous terminology regarding a "final solution", if indeed one ever really existed within Zionism or not.

Exactly what the likes of the Haavara Agreement has to do with the eventual genocidal operations of the Nazis remains a mystery though. What, exactly, are you trying to get at there?

Plus, anti-Semitism in other European nations also has little to do with eventual German plans as they played out. I'm unsure why that angle is being introduced as well.

The "work" carried out by the functionaries was done so at the behest of Himmler, however, even if he wasn't getting his hands dirty himself and nothing was given a go ahead on the subject without his authority. Orders of sonderbehandlung, etc, had to come directly from his offices before anything was put in place. He would, of course, entrust certain powers to the hands of the upper echelons of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and Sicherheitsdienst where applicable. But he always maintained as firm a grip as possible. It was one of the reasons Hitler entrusted him with the responsibility in the first place. So, no, Himmler wasn't personally rounding up Jews in Budapest or the Island of Rhodes. But he was the one who gave the order to do so and was the one who had full knowledge of why the order was being given in the first place.

As to what the Germans knew, that's a debate that has raged since before the war ended. I would argue that actual knowledge was rare enough. Certainly from a comprehensive point of view. Definitely there were would have been many would would have heard stories. There's a reason why the "death camps" were built in Poland and not Germany. But stories are rife during wartime and are often baloney irrespective of the topic and atrocity propaganda is extremely widespread. Yes, a "sizeable" number would have been aware of an atrocity here and an atrocity there. But very, very, few people would have been in possession of the amount of data that is at our fingertips these days. And, just like the allies, they would have been helpless to do anything about it. In fact, the average German was in a worse place than the might of the allied military to do anything about Nazi plans for "undesirables".

I've read that document numerous times over the last 20 years.

I get what you saying however the publication in 1943 of the Polish government-in-exile document titled the " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" was specifically addressed to the then members of the United Nations. Regardless of the politics of who was talking to who individual Allied countries were all made aware of what was happening in Poland at that time.

A response to that document included above includes a joint declaration from the following:

"The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovak, Greek, Jugoslav, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom and United States Governments and also of the French National Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended, the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitlers oft-repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.

From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invader are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.

The above-mentioned governments and the French National Committee condemn in the strongest possible terms this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination. They declare that such events can only strengthen the resolve of all freedom-loving peoples to overthrow the barbarous Hitlerite tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn resolution to insure that those responsible for these crimes shall not escape retribution, and to press on with the necessary practical measures to this end."

You could have fooled anyone considering your previous comment where you claim

Where we know that the document

The " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" as published by Polish government-in-exile in 1943 was based on first hand factual reports from Poland and the detail contained therein concerning the mass slaughter of Jewish people in Poland, including the clearance of those incarcerated in the Warsaw ghettos to the "extermination camps" of Treblinka, Bełżec and Soribor.

But sure all that is "dubious" or "false" according to some ..

And all that despite this?

Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations  describing the ongoing events of the holocaust in Nazi occupied Europe

Everything in that document goes against what you're claiming.

That some to choose not to believe the diseminated and published facts at the time is now known. But that does make the account as published as you have suggested either "false" or "dubious"

The topic under discussion is the brochure document as linked in my original comment. Oddly enough you now seem wish to ignore that.

"By Poland, I mean the geographical location as it was in 1939. All of which was incorporated into the Reich and sub-divided into various "Gaus"...and while no, it wasn't in the Gobi desert or some such, it was still a world away from the average German."

Firstly Germany didn't occupy all of Poland in 1939 and secondly not all of the occupied territory was annexed into the Reich.

No it wasn't a world away from the average German (whatever that means) these were areas for German colonisation which began from the very beginning with expulsions of ethnic Poles especially following the harvest in the Spring of 1940. German volunteers moved in as soon as the Poles left to ready the vacant homesteads and among other things replace pictures of saints with ones depicting Hitler.

We know from the letters sent home by soldiers that along with the stories of conquest and the poor living conditions of Poles and Russians they also mentioned massacres of Jews. You might call these rumours but if they believed the stories of victories and conditions why would they discount stories about Jews being murdered?

They may not have known or particularly cared about the industrial killings but many were aware of the policy in the East and I'm not talking about 0.01% of Germans.

"Neck"!.

In reply to my comment that the various allies knew what was happening in Poland as highlighted in the published report by the Polish government-in-exile in 1943 titled "The Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" specifically addressed to the the United Nations

- your take on that official document based on factual and first hand accounts was and I quote

We know that the information contained in the report was neither "False" nor "dubious" nor was it based on "rumour or speculation"

And again the point here point is not whether or not the report was believed or otherwise at the time - rather that it is now abundantly clear that the Allies were in possession of information gathered from first hand accounts of what was happening in Poland and provided by officials of the Polish in exile government

You can of course to continue to deny that all you like.

Why are all your posts so vehemently centered around extermination of the Jews specifically? If you get to 1000 Jew-centric posts do you get a free house on the West Bank or something?

'Sigh'!

It's a discussion. I'm not the one throwing around comments about 'necks' and whatnot.

The topic explicitly detailed was the report titled the " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" not a general discussion about some erstwhile propaganda which might not stand the test of time. What we know happened in Poland and as detailed in that 1943 report by the Polish government-in-exile was indeed based on fact. That some chose not to believe that account is irrelevant

Bizarrely in reply to my original comment, you went on at some length and to paraphrase how-no-one-could-have-known-anything-and/or -much-of-what-they-did-know-was-dubious-or false.

Again whether or not the facts as known were acted on or not has absolutely no relevance and is irrelevant to the fact that we know that the allies were in possession of factual and accurate information about the extermination of millions of people by the Nazis in Europe .

Y

Because "denial" is and was proffered as one of the reasons that the report was not believed. If you wish to take that otherwise that's not up to anyone else..

And btw I've deliberately not replied in kind to your ongoing and rather bizarre assertions of "indignation" "calm down" "necks" "agitated" and other barbs, rather I've simply highlighted them for what they are as stupid asides.

That you have chosen to mudy the waters and variously cast aspersions on the 1943 report through a general and irrelevant rant about "dubious" and "false" disinformation or propaganda and how-no-one-could-have-known-anything-and/or -much-of-what-they-did-know-was-dubious-or-false simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

Edit: As for the funny comment re. "decent manner", I will refer you to your various comments with other posters in this thread.

.

Important for perspective:

Who liberated Auschwitz in 1945? The Soviet Union.

Who murdered more than 20,000 Polish prisoners of war at Katyn? The Allies.

Puts a different spin on things, doesn't it?

What a bizarre post.

Look, if you are interested in discussing the war or any facet of it, I'm all ears. I'll be happy to talk about it all day long. If all you want to do is bicker, then you can take it elsewhere.

Seems to be a pro-soviet anti-western spin but fails by showing total ignorance of basic historical facts.

A quote I came upon recently on someone who tried something similar. I think it may be relevant

It's not at all. It's just commenting on the fact that I have so often seen the story of the liberation of Auschwitz by the Red Army as being credited to "The Allies", which is fair enough. They were part of the Allied Forces.

But the massacre of Katyn is ALWAYS attributed to "The Soviets" (well apart from the era pre glasnost when the Soviets tried to blame it on the Nazis, but nobody, least of all the Poles was buying that). It has certainly never been credited to the Allies.

Now, you might split hairs to accuse me of "total ignorance of basic historical facts" by pointing out that the Soviets were not allied with Britain or the USA in 1940 when the Katyn killings occurred. In fact the USA were not even in the war at that point. But is it really fair to suggest that the Soviets underwent a complete personality change after Operation Barbarossa and were never nasty to the Poles ever again?

To claim THAT would require "a total ignorance of basic historical facts" or at least a strong willingness to discount them.

Essentially what I'm saying is that the same people who liberated Auschwitz carried out the smaller but no less brutal genocide at Katyn. That was a deliberate attempt to wipe out a generation of Polish intelligentsia--the officer corps, intellectuals, people who worked with brain rather than hand, It was futile of course but some 20,000 prisoners died as part of the effort.

How is pointing that out pro-soviet?