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Yet another young woman attacked by a male. When will it end?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't read it like that at all. I think he was highlighting that sexism/racism against white men is given little credence by people who assume they have some imagined privilege.

    I don't think that they believe men are being persecuted or that others have it easier. It's just some refuse to believe that men (white men in this case) can have it as hard as anyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    of course they can have it as hard as anyone else but generally speaking, certainly on a global scale, you've already got a leg up in life if you're white and male



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Maybe we'll live in a world one day where that opinion would be common sense but sadly we don't.

    Id lock him up in a centre indefinitely and only allow him to leave once he agrees to a one way ticket out of the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    The irony being that you'd attack no other group in the same way, which at least helps support the point that white males aren't some sort of protected, "privileged" group.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I do not agree with that line of thinking and I think its a dangerous and somewhat offensive generalisation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    personally i don't see the point of this person being allowed to live anymore, i certainly wouldn't be allowing him any education or tv's or playstations or visits in jail at the very least, like that scum who killed Ashling, that animal should be stuck in the smallest cell on his own for the rest of his life. Why does he deserve human rights ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The same can easily be said if you're white and female, especially in Western nations. There are always going to be disadvantages/advantages of being a particular gender.

    Although, the truth is that being white of any gender can be a distinct disadvantage in a variety of nations around the world, but yes, generally it's a good thing.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    What that whole post is, is a total cop out, and a complete dig at women, despite your claim otherwise.

    Its a tick-box of excuses why you think men can't shouldn't have to do anything to help bring about change, while attempting to shift a larger proportion of blame for young men's behaviour onto women's shoulders - their mothers, female teachers.

    Do you seriously think boys and young men are learning how to disrespect women and act violently towards both other men and women, at their mother's knee? Give me a break.

    If men are unwilling to call out other men - not strangers, but their own friends on bad behaviour (which was the specific example i gave) then how do you expect a woman to do so? In particular, a woman on her own?

    How much more intimidating do you think it is for her to stand up to a man in a situation like that, if grown men are afraid to do so because of the fear of retaliatory "male aggression".

    And if that is the case, why are some men still questioning "why are women so afraid?" when it can be taken from what you're saying that they are afraid themselves.

    Where do you actually expect change to come from? Ultimately, I have to conclude that you don't expect anything to change - and its not that you're unable to do anything, its that you're unwilling to do anything. Which is very disappointing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    If men are unwilling to out other men - not strangers, but their own friends on bad behaviour (which was the specific example i gave) then how do you expect a woman to do so? In particular, a woman on her own

    See this is the problem, you assume we've had these experiences in the first place, when most of us haven't, because we aren't friends with the types of people who do stuff like that. This applies to most male groups, which is the point, the types who engage in this stuff are a minority, a minority we aren't friends with. You assume we see this all the time, yet do nothing, which says far more about your views of average male behavior. What you think is average isn't, which is why people are incensed by your claims, because they aren't relevant to most of us, and are out of touch with reality. You're asking us to fix problems we simply don't see.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Of course have a part to play in the shaping of their society, both the positives are influenced by men and the negatives are also influenced by men as well as both are influenced by women. This is just another post laying the blame at the feet of Irish men and demanding they agree with this collective guilt or be "part of the problem"

    Do women have no impact on the rearing and moulding of their male children ? They are raised by the evil men only, in isolation and taught the ways of oppression and violence and girls are being raised by their mothers, thats not accurate imo. When will we see the threads decrying the recent spate of foreign born men attacking women ? Or is that particular generalisation uncomfortable or a degree too specific perhaps ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The poster you responded to said he would call out friends who engage in poor behaviour and wouldn't associate with people who do engage in that behaviour.

    I'm not sure how you could hand-on-heart see that post as a dig at women. The only way you could possibly think that is if you genuinely believe that it is only men who are responsible for children growing up with bad attitudes and behaviour.

    And if that is the case, you are wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    He's mentally ill, and as such should be processed through a treatment facility.

    Locking up a mentally ill person, then releasing them back into society and expecting them to have improved their behaviour is insane.

    It's a never ending merry-go-round, and will continue as long a society keeps punishing rather than treating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    is it a silly thread title? the answer is never



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is silly.

    It is framed to make it look like an epidemic of violence tailored towards a certain gender.

    But putting up "another violent attack happened today. When will it end?" wouldn't get the usual footfall.



  • Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    No-one is against it. But what are the vast majority of men supposed to do to prevent the actions of a small minority of mentally deranged and hopeless cases with complex behavioural and substance abuse issues?

    Most normal every-day men don't even associate with these types, or hardly even know such people personally. So there is litterally very very little that "men" as collective can do in a practical sense.

    If you witness an attack, sure they could summon help or try to intervene or call the Gardai, but direct intervention is as likely to get you stabbed or beaten as not, it is very risky. What's more, a large portion of these attacks are fairly opportunistic and random in nature and happen in quiet areas or at quiet times, so there is no-one there to intervene. Granted, the Tullamore and Stephen's green cases are in busy areas, but the thing is, these incidents all happen in a matter of seconds too, so it isn't realistically possible to intervene - it is usually over within a matter of seconds in the case of random punch assaults by loopers.

    In my opinion a lot of it can be put into 4 categories.....

    1. Psychopathic creeps and perverts. Cunning and will engineer the situation to do whatever it is to a woman, in the hopes of getting away with it. Think the likes of Larry Murphy, Graham Dwyer, Michael O'Donoghue, David Masterson, big Joe O'Reilly et al. Psychopathic monsters who are driven to do what they do by their inherent evilness.
    2. Mentally deranged loopers. Fellas who will sexually assault, rape, assault or even kill someone in broad daylight because they are nutty in the head or schizo but the, mental health services being what they are in this country, these nut cases are allowed walk the streets unabated. (just this morning I saw some head-banger of a fella in a park across the street roaring shíte talk into the sky - a looper who should be in some sort of institution for his own good, if nothing else)
    3. Petty harassers and delinquent youths, feral scum who harass passers by be they women or men, young or old with the objective of looking like the big hardman in front of their friends. Pack mentality.
    4. Cat callers, wolfwhistlers, arse slappers, and the like. Think of stereotypical builders on scaffolding shouting after a woman on the street, or the likes of the character Chris Finch from the Uk version of The Office. Obnoxious and annoying tossers, but probably unlikely to rape or kill someone. But they still cause distress and trouble and shouldn't be tolerated.

    For 1 and 2, normal every day men cannot do anything about it because these fellas are simply either bad or mad. Inherently mentally defective and that is the source of their offending. For these it is a matter for the mental health services and Gardai to identify these individuals and deal with them effectively before they become an issue.

    For 3 the only realistic way I can see that "men" could aid the cause would be for their fathers or male relatives to be parents and role models and sharply punish such behaviour and opinions from their sons. The problem there is that these are often disadvantaged demographics and their fathers/uncles are either non-existent or if they are they may be misogynistic violent tossers themselves, and it is a case of monkey see monkey do. For a regular man walking the street to challenge a group of youths like this would be extremely dangerous and foolish as he would be likely to be beaten up or even stabbed. In the first instance it realistically is a matter for the Gardai to challenge and the courts to punish, but we all know the legal system is beyond a soft touch here. it needs reform, badly. Community leaders, schools, and social services have a role to play in changing the culture and diverting youths away from this sort of petty criminality.

    With 4, this is probably the only area where the average man on the street could challenge such behaviour without putting themselves at risk. Having the balls to challenge and denounce such behaviour on the spot when you see it. "would you say that to your sister, or mother? Cop yourself on and grow up". Men who are managers in the workplace, or in other positions of authority can and should challenge this behaviour by taking complaints seriously and pursuing and investigating them vigorously when they are brought to their attention. Gardai and courts might need to be involved in this process as well.

    So, it is not as simple as just saying "oh men should do something". It is not that simple. That appoach is like expecting a white knight to gallop in on a horse at the moment some incident kicks off.

    it is more complex than that, as my analysis above would show. In many cases regular men have no influence or contact with agressors, in other cases it would be highly dangerous and foolish to intervene directly in an incident. But in other cases they can influence things and change the culture, but it is limited to the areas in which they have influence, such as within the family or community organisations, or the workplace.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Can anyone of our migrant asylum seeker welcomers please give us one good reason why this scrot is still in our country ?????

    All we hear is how people from certain countries deserve asylum, but we never hear what we the Irish people deserve ?

    I guess it isn't safety.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    There is a difference between "not seeing" something and "turning a blind eye" to it, which I think might be closer to the truth.

    I've read posts from men here over the years who admitted to saying nothing about laddish behaviour they've encountered in their friend groups, both in person, or on social media, whatsapp groups, etc because they didn't want to be the one to rock the boat and call it out.

    Time to start rocking the boat.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    W


    That that whole post is, is a total cop out, and a complete dig at women, despite your claim otherwise.

    There were no digs at women in my post. Care to quote the digs I made?

    Do you believe that women's lives exist in a vacuum and have no influence over other people...? Because that's what you've just done by passing the buck entirely on to men. If you are serious in your claims to want to improve society, then it makes logical sense to acknowledge the influence that both genders have over the development of children/teens/adults.

    Its a tick-box of excuses why you think men can't shouldn't have to do anything to help bring about change, while attempting to shift a larger proportion of blame for young men's behaviour onto women's shoulders - their mothers, female teachers.

    As I said, you're not listening to a male poster, talking about how men interact with each other. You made the complaint that men weren't listening to women, but you're doing the exact same thing here. You provided a couple of example suggestions, and I told you why they were impractical.. and your response is to dismiss those objections.

    And I didn't attempt to shift a larger degree of responsibility over to women for the development of males. You introduced that idea all by yourself. I said that they were responsible, because of the exposure that males have throughout their childhood/teens, in objection to your claim that males learn everything from other men.

    Do you seriously think boys and young men are learning how to disrespect women and act violently towards both other men and women, at their mother's knee? Give me a break.

    I think the vast majority of men are respectful and relatively polite to women, in general, because of what they learned from both men and women, probably from their female family members in particular. I don't believe that most boys/men are disrespectful or violent towards women... maybe you do, but I certainly don't, nor does it really show itself in society either.

    How much more intimidating do you think it is for her to stand up to a man in a situation like that, if grown men are afraid to do so because of the fear of retaliatory "male aggression"

    It's not a competition. I know it's more intimidating for women than it is for men, although the risks are the same, if not more for men, due to how males interact each other when emotions are high. The point is not that it's more or less intimidating. The point is that it's the wrong solution to the situation. We have to find other solutions than standing up to an aggressor in that kind of situation.

    And if that is the case, why are some men still questioning "why are women so afraid?" when it can be taken from what you're saying that they are afraid themselves.

    I don't know. I've always known that some women are afraid of these situations. Although, I do think the media and others have managed to exaggerate the dangers involved, considering the actual statistics on violence in Ireland, especially when compared to other countries. However, that's not diminishing the fear that some women feel.... I'm just at a loss as to what can be done to change it. I've asked repeatedly for specifics as to what can be changed... the problem is that most of those suggestions, won't change anything because the people who are assholes won't be affected, and will simply continue their behaviour regardless. I'm hoping to see suggestions that take into account the reality of society and the place of both genders in that society...

    Where do you actually expect change to come from? Ultimately, I have to conclude that you don't expect anything to change - and its not that you're unable to do anything, its that you're unwilling to do anything. Which is very disappointing.

    Again, you're unwilling to listen. I've repeatedly pointed out the problems with the logic you're applying, and you're repeatedly floated back to a perspective that doesn't take into account the consequences of actions. Your suggestions will result in violence. It's that simple, but I get the feeling that you don't care if men are injured or killed as a result...

    I'm willing to do anything that doesn't involve me ending up in hospital or in a coffin. You don't get it. I've been in fights. I've intervened before when a woman was being assaulted. I've ended up in hospital with serious injuries, because of those violent incidents. I have permanent damage to my body from fights I had in my early 20s (I'm in my 40s now), and worse yet, I'm far weaker now physically than when I was in my 20s. I know that most men would wipe the floor with me, and in any confrontation, the other guy(s) would know it too.

    So, what do you expect me to do about this situation? Encourage my friends to be gentlemen? They already do so without my involvement. Not be a dick? Definitely try not to be. Intervene when a woman is being hassled? In most situations, I would.. however, I do place some importance on my own health, so, in other situations I won't intervene.

    As for what I expect to happen? Honestly, I doubt much will, except more laws that do little to change the situation, because people really aren't interested in tackling the underlying issues in society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    I'm not making light of it but, There's a 50% chance of a female being attacked by a male.

    Anyone and everyone is capable of doing this in the right (wrong) circumstances. You can't cure the human condition



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    i'm not sure what quantifies laddish behaviour but i can tell you none of my friends or i have ever wolf whistled a girl, none of them talk sexually about women or their partners even in one on ones, none of them are handsy that i have seen ! men just dont do that in general bar total scumbags, the women in my office now that's a different story, they talk about their husbands and partners every personal details in work, and i'm talking every detail revolving around sex and manhood ect, should other women be calling them out for laddish behaviour ? the comments they make to men in the office aswell are unreal with sexual innuendos it makes alot of us very uncomfortable but it's ok because they are women and won't rape anyone i guess



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Most of us neither see, nor turn a blind eye, which is my point. What kind of laddish behavior? This brings up another issue, you spoke about men looking at women before, like it's a crime, but men naturally look at a beautiful women if they see one, and there's nothing wrong with that, once it doesn't cross a line into staring, or harassing, or anything more extreme. Do you not think that women look at good looking men in the same way? The type of world you'd like to create is one that goes against the nature of both sexes, one where men can't look at women or talk to women, because of what are essentially the desires of feminist women, and not women as a whole. The fact that any of those things are lumped in with sexual assault and murder is absurd, as they aren't even on the same scale. It's like the feminist equivalent of the gateway drug theory, the man who starts looking at women, might eventually end up raping women.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,781 ✭✭✭zv2


    When was the last time you called out a woman for putting men down?

    Generally speaking men who would call out whistlers, cat callers etc. don't hang around with such people. I have rarely heard anything bad said about women because I don't hang out with people who would do that. Also if, for example, a man calls out someone in the workplace, he is likely to be ostracized, crucified, marginalized for years to come. As you know, the workplace can be very cruel. Also, as long as feminism promotes hatred of men they are not going to take any of this calling out seriously. Women need to supervise each other and be seen to do this before men take it seriously.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭CreadanLady



    I don't think that would be possible. I suspect that it might even be unconstitutional. What you are talking about is imprisoning one person for the crime of another. More nonsense.

    There was a suggestion on one of the other threats that a ring-fenced man-tax of even a quarter of a percent on men's incomes would be able to fund womens' refuges and domestic violence charities beyond all their wildest dreams. That is not even a bad idea. it could be introduced for a couple of years and would have minimal impact on men's income but would revolutionise the supports available to women who are victims of male violence.

    Something else I have supported is that for the procedures around prosecution of certain sexual and domestic violence offences be changed. HEre's why. Proving sexual and domestic abuse is often very difficult owing purely to the nature of the offending, and it can be historical in a lot of cases. Investigations and vigorous cross examinations can often re-inflict a lot of the trauma on the victim. This all reduces the liklihood of convictions, and deters victims from coming forward. So, I would support that the burden of proof in court be reduced from "beyond all reasonable doubt" to "balance of probabilities". Convictions could be secured more frequently, and more victims will feel empowered to come forward.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah, yet again, you try to imply that I do not care about men, or if they end up hurt or dead.

    Not the first time you've tried to accuse me of something like that, and when I asked you to quote those posts before - no reply.

    I'm not engaging with you further in this, not when you keep doing that.

    There will be no meeting of the minds here.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I also think a certain amount of "laddish" behaviour is ok. Healthy even.

    I mean, are off-colour remarks or jokes not acceptable between groups of friends? I mean, with certain friends, I would say things and laugh at things that I wouldn't dream about saying in front of a stranger or even other friends. Should that be acceptable?

    If not, I think that men are being held to an impossible standard which that poster doesn't hold women to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    So the let me get this straight the most recent high profile attacks on women in the media are:

    • a young woman in Offaly viciously assaulted and murdered by a Slovakian.
    • a woman viciously assaulted in Stephens Green by a Zimbabwean scrot
    • a young girl (and coincidentally her male companion) viciously assaulted by 4 men in Ballyfermot, 2 of which are 18
    • a girl attacked in Kilkenny by white man with Irish accent
    • a young girl in Cork assaulted by a 13 year old lad

    How can men, especially us white Irish men, have prevented these attacks ?

    Somehow I think the perps wouldn't have listened to some guys telling them to behave.

    And I do know ways at least two of these could have been probably prevented, but of course the liberals, especially a lot of those squawking about men stepping up, don't want to countenance strict immigration controls, and tough measures on deliquent kids and their parents.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry did I read that wrong?

    You want to tax men more to fund women refuges?

    And you want to eliminate the need of absolute proof for guilt in order to encourage more accusations?

    I mean... how do I even begin to point out how utterly ridiculous both suggestions are?



This discussion has been closed.
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